Mr. Stephen Mulvany:

If we look at the practical realities of the numbers of organisations, there are more than 2,000 section 39 organisations. The legislation is quite clear and differential. Section 38 organisations are providing services for and on behalf of the HSE. In the case of section 39 organisations, we are making a contribution towards services they are providing that are aligned with our own objectives and goals. That does not mean that we are not interested in their governance, as the director general has said, particularly in the larger agencies. However, we are not the Charities Regulator. We are not the regulator of the sector. As one goes down the scale of the smaller organisations, to which we may still be giving substantial amounts of money as €200,000 is a substantial sum for most people, for us to get involved in effectively inspecting and auditing some of those is simply not practical. Several of the practices that have been reported in the media will not show up on a review of a set of accounts. It may or may not show up in an audit. In some cases they should show up. They may not show up even if there is the normal level of performance meetings with such an organisation per yer. At €200,000 per year, our guideline requires one to three meetings per year. One will not necessarily pick up on the type of issues that have become systemic. That is why we have written to all the chairs of the boards to state that without wanting it to appear as though we are not taking responsibility for that for which we are responsible, the fundamental responsibility for ensuring there is good governance inside each of those 2,000 organisations lies with the boards of those organisations. They are the people who control it, not the HSE. That is without trying to avoid anything for which we are responsible.