Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I am not an expert on pensions and I find them difficult. I worked in An Post before I was elected and our own pension scheme was in trouble several years ago. It was hard to understand the way it was run. To my mind, defined benefit schemes were a significant step forward in the 1980s and 1990s from the point of view of the employer and the employee. They were socially integrating, making employers responsible for their employees. It is a terrible indictment that we are witnessing the move from defined benefit schemes to defined contribution schemes. This takes away responsibility from the employer and puts it on the shoulders of the employees. Employees have a role to playing in this. A number of options can be considered, such as an employer increasing liability, the company’s assets or employees increasing their liability.

The idea of giving a year's notice of intention to cease contributions is important. When we consider the cases of INM and Irish Life, it gives people a long time to sit down and work out rather than dealing with it overnight and saying the scheme will implode. I recall what happened during the ESB dispute about its defined benefit scheme. The idea behind it was that the ESB wanted to take the liability off its books to sell itself to the markets. Obviously, that was turned around and the workers maintained the defined benefit scheme.

Mr. O’Brien stated "This Bill will turn a voluntary contribution into a mandatory obligation and potentially jeopardise the viability of businesses which are unable to absorb this extra cost." Will the other witnesses comment on that? It is an important point which should be taken on board. How can the Pensions Authority look at ways of intervening during that period? Mr. O’Brien also made the point that over-regulation kills defined benefit schemes. During the past ten years, however, they have been killed off by austerity, the crash and the 36% reduction in values. It is about what the pension funds invest in. There has to be more of an examination of where the money is invested to protect it.

On the issue of pensions equality raised by Mr. Courtney and Ms Toner, it is straightforward and should be dealt with easily. We should not be fighting over it. If we can get clarity in respect of the matter, it would be important to ensure it is also clear in the legislation. They raised the case of Annette McCabe. Will they send more information to the committee on that case in order that we might deal with it?