Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats) | Oireachtas source

I want to go back again to the internal audit report and the progress report on the financial procedures in the Garda College, which comes out of this. We know Mr. Dunne has not read it, but has everybody else read this? I take it everybody accepts the findings.

We had the head of internal audit in here with us two weeks ago and he surprised us with his opening statement's strength and candour.

He stated:

I started work in An Garda Síochána as head of internal audit ten years ago in June 2007. At that time and for the next two years approximately, I reported to Deputy Commissioner Fitzgerald, who is mentioned in the report in the context of the Garda Boat Club issue. From 2009 until his retirement in 2014, I reported to Deputy Commissioner Rice. It was Deputy Commissioner Rice who stated in a note to the Commissioner on 18 September 2009, "I strongly believe that any surplus money does not belong to the State but rather is owned by the members of An Garda Síochána from whom they were collected and I equally hold that any money cannot be used except for the welfare and development of the facilities for members [of the Garda College]".

He went on to state:

Deputy Commissioner Rice did not seek my advice in regarding this issue prior to sending his note to the Commissioner in 2009. Had he done so, I would have pointed out that this was contrary to section C5.19 of the Public Financial Procedures [DPER] – the blue book - which, under the heading "Exchequer Extra Receipts", states, "These are receipts that the Department of Finance directs must be credited directly to the Exchequer and cannot be retained by Departments for their own use".

That is completely at odds with what the witnesses have said in respect of their understanding of what those moneys were for. They state now that they accept the report and its findings and it is completely the opposite of their viewpoint. That viewpoint is important in terms of whether they see those moneys as being appropriately used and moved from the restaurant account into the Sportsfield account. Do the witnesses understand the point I am making?