David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I will say to the witnesses that we, as members of the Committee of Public Accounts, have no axe to grind. We are dealing with an internal audit report which was presented to us. In fact, it came from a leak. We may have got it anyway over the course of time, but we are dealing with an internal audit report which was not done by us. It was done by internal audit in An Garda Síochána. We have responsibility to ask questions about that internal audit report. That is why we are here and why the witnesses are here.

I mentioned earlier today - and the Cathaoirleach was looking for clarification - that the Garda Commissioner had accepted that there were financial irregularities. The irregularities are set out in the interim audit report. It talks about non-compliance with public financial procedures, non-compliance with the Garda finance code, irregular presentation of accounts, irregular transfer of cash from accounts, irregular opening of accounts, irregular opening or setting up of companies, and so on. Those are the irregularities which the Garda Commissioner accepts. I think everybody accepts that there were unacceptable practices and irregularities, or at least most people who have appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts have. That is what we are dealing with.

What we are also seeing - and this is most troubling for us - is that we can see what was done or maybe not done internally, and we can also see what was not done externally. So from 2006 to 2016, the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General was either shut out or not informed. Right through 2006, we had the incomplete report. There was the McGee report in 2008. In 2010, there was the Nolan report. In 2011, we had a report sent from the internal audit to the Commissioner, which had the paragraph that was removed, which the internal auditor says he removed. In 2015, we had information and correspondence as well. From 2006, right up to the establishment of the steering group, the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General was still not informed. The Committee of Public Accounts was not informed. That is the reality and what we are dealing with.

We had the heads of departments, who are mainly civilian heads, in a number of weeks ago. Mr. Barrett and Mr. Kelly were of the view that the internal audit was frustrated in this work and that all of this was about dealing with these issues internally, keeping issues from the purview of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts, and internal audit being frustrated in seeking documentation and being able to do its work. That is what they said, and it chimes with the fact that these bodies were not informed. That is where we are and that is the reality. We are now at the stage where we have middle management in the Garda training college, and people who had roles there, and also others who still cannot help us. They still cannot help me, and I do not know about the Cathaoirleach, but they still cannot help us to establish why the information was not given to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Not one person in the room today has been able to say to me, "This is why there was a blockage and why it never happened". We know information went up as far as the Commissioner in 2008 and in 2010, twice, where a Commissioner said information should be given to the Comptroller and Auditor General, and it was not done.

Can Mr. Ó Cualáin understand my frustration with all of that? Can he understand that is where we are, and would he accept that is where we are as a starting point?