Ms Bríd O'Brien:

To respond to Senator Mulherin's questions first, in the past, particularly before the recent crisis hit, people were able to undertake FÁS training programmes even if they were not in receipt of a payment. That was one of the early changes made when the crisis hit. Since the Department of Social Protection absorbed FÁS's employment services, access to services now is very much related to a payment. Many people, such as women who did not have an entitlement in their own right because of their partner's income or who perhaps were not claiming in their own right often tried to access return-to-work courses or the FÁS courses, which were the only options. Their availability depended on where people lived and what access was available in those areas. It is an issue we have called on the Department to look at seriously. It absorbed the national employment service and really should be providing an employment service to everybody of working age, regardless of the payment. It is an issue many men started to experience during this crisis. If their partner was working, once they got to the end of their social insurance payment they then did not qualify for the means-tested payment and so found themselves entitled to no supports of any nature. When we raised this with the Department at senior level, we were told that people can drop into the local Intreo office for supports. However, the reality is that the local Intreo office's work is assessed by looking at whether the live register is being reduced and if people are getting back into work. Its work is being assessed in a way that does not lend itself to an inclusive service for everybody of working age. That certainly needs to be addressed. Depending on the nature of Brexit, we may have limited space to address that because we may start to see more unemployed people. It would be wonderful if the worst-case scenario did not arise. The issue must be addressed because services should be available to everybody of working age, particularly those who wish to try to get back into the labour market and secure employment.

On the questions Senator Byrne raised, some additional programmes have been rolled out, for example the Springboard programme, which was very welcome. Springboard was one of the programmes which facilitated people who perhaps had a certain level of education training, because many of the pre-crisis supports were designed on the assumption that those who were unemployed were in receipt of other working age payments and perhaps did not have a certain level of education. They were designed to try and bring people up to certain levels. When the crisis hit we then had people with significant experience and in some cases high-level qualifications looking for help. Springboard and the ICT conversion courses helped to address that gap, because that was a big gap in provision. When we look at some of the expenditure over time there is definitely less provision in certain areas and a concern that people have - particularly those who are working with people whose literacy levels are not good - is that in some of the training schemes involving community employment, there an presumption that people are already at level five of the national framework of qualifications. In some cases people are doing well if they are at level three. We have to design the system to meet the needs of the individual rather than designing programmes in a very tight way and then trying to squash the individuals into them. The Department of Social Protection's strategic objective is about building services around the individual. Within the further education training strategy, the national skills strategy and the Action Plan for Education, there is a strong emphasis on creating supports and services that allow the individual to flourish. However, because of the way those systems meet, people still find themselves not able to exercise informed choice or being referred to things that may not be suitable for them. We feel it is in the system's own interest to take that initial time to really talk things through with people, work with them, find out what stage they are at, what they need to do, what is available to them and what needs to be done to get them there. Taking that time at the beginning to work that out and map out that journey would make a huge difference to the individual and would also mean that we are using resources more effectively.

Community employment plays a variety of roles that sometimes pull against each other. It is often the only access point to the labour market for people who are particularly distant and who may be experiencing discrimination because of their age, their ethnicity, where they are from, their parental status or because they have a disability. Sometimes the individuals who need that opportunity and what the sponsoring organisation needs in terms of existing skills and talent do not always fit. That can be a challenge.

Again, some issues have arisen because, unfortunately, when Jobs Ireland was rolled out it had a few blips, and it still has. That has definitely created logistical issues in filling schemes such as community employment. Schemes that have been successful in being filled have very much gone back to developing personal relationship with key parts of the system in order to get referrals. There is a challenge there. The system has moved in this very directive fashion of people being directed into things rather than being allowed to opt into things. For an employment programme that can be an opening opportunity for people, the fact that the system is so different to how people secure employment otherwise is not advisable. Apart from someone who is headhunted and is at the top of the labour market, most of the rest of us go out looking for a job and have to roll our sleeves up and all that. I think it is a false relationship that is not necessarily helpful to the person trying to move on to bigger and better things. I believe that needs to be addressed.

In terms of planning for the worst and hoping for the best, the inference of Senator Paul Daly's question was that somehow we would be able to pull it all around on our own. If we could do that, our affiliates would be delighted with life, not to mention our individual members. What we are doing and will continue to do is to engage with Government across a whole range of policy makers and implementers on what we feel needs to happen to try to lessen the impact of Brexit. If the worst-case scenario arises, the implications for employment and unemployment are unpleasant. For younger people who are trying to secure their first job and for older people who may have realised that because of their age they were not going to get work in Ireland and went elsewhere to find work, there are huge challenges. We really need to try to ensure that the Border is as invisible as possible and the common travel area is maintained. However, there is a long road to go to make sure that happens.