Mr. Matt Carthy:

Deputy Durkan proved my point on media engagement by referring to the analysis of the Taoiseach's and the Government's performance in the Council negotiations. This analysis was largely written by people who had not been in Brussels for the past 12 months, let alone engaged with the negotiations. The lead piece in The Irish Timeswas written by its London correspondent. We need an engaged media and people who will hold us all to account as MEPs and Government representatives.

I agree with everything Deputy Martin Kenny said. Elites can be elected. An elite is a disengaged political class and comprises people who deliberately or negligently ignore what citizens are asking them to do. At European level, notwithstanding everything Seán Kelly and others have said, there is a big problem in this regard.

The EU engagement with trade agendas in the recent past has been the best example of that, where it has gone out of its way to ignore, misinform and, in some cases, block any debate in regard to what trade deals will mean for vulnerable sectors such as the agricultural sector or domestic indigenous SMEs and what the real output will be. As we have from the start, we are asking for an open conversation on the net impacts of trade deals. For example, the EU-Canada Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA, has led to an additional 50,000 tonnes of Canadian beef entering the EU market. No one can tell what impact that will have on the Irish beef market because nobody has bothered to find out. Nobody has carried out an analysis of what it will mean, yet Ireland has signed up to it. Regardless of the Deputy's position on the matter, there should be a public debate about it. There is a very good chance that the provision of an EU investor court system for resolving disputes between investors and states will be put to a referendum. As I said earlier, I do not want such a referendum to take place in a vacuum where the only option is to accept it or Ireland will leave the EU. We need to have a conversation about whether Ireland wants to be part of this type of scenario.

Deputy O'Rourke asked two questions which are crucial in regard to how we move forward. The first addressed the position of MEPs and other European leaders regarding our concerns about Brexit. Although I am usually very critical, I admit that there is an openness at European level to addressing the issues that we have raised. The EU has more understanding than the British Government of the implications of Brexit for the island of Ireland and the Border, in particular. Our colleagues in the British Parliament do not comprehend our discussion in terms of the dangers of a hard Border. Perhaps the understanding of the EU on this issue is because it has more awareness of what land borders mean and the challenges and hindrances they can create. On the evidence of people to whom we have spoken, there is no resistance at European level to a formula that allows the North to remain part of the Single Market and the customs union, to draw down EU funding and continue to have rights in terms of European Parliament elections. The only places from which resistance to such solutions will come are this country or our neighbours across the water. We must ensure that, if there is resistance, it does not come from Irish political leaders. People need to work together.

Deputy O'Rourke also asked about the prospect of other countries leaving the EU. In the short term, there is no prospect of any other country leaving the European Union. That is probably primarily influenced by the apparent mess that the British Government is making of its exit. In the short term, no electorate would leave the EU, even if they were given an option to do so. That is mainly due to a threat and fear of what leaving the EU would entail as opposed to a sense of ownership and belonging to the EU. That is not a good foundation on which to move a political project forward. As I said earlier, unless the EU moves towards a situation where citizens across Europe want to belong to and feel they have ownership of the EU project, it is a foundation built on quicksand and does not have a future that we would like. All witnesses and members here today accept the EU is an important concept and has an important role to play in the future of this country and other EU member states. If we do not engage with European leaders to ensure they begin to engage with citizens and national parliaments in a way they should have been doing and should do, I fear what the future prospects may be.