Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

We certainly did not cut existing pensions. There were future expectations perhaps that is not the same thing. We both know what we are saying and the Deputy understands what I am saying. It was also done as part of a wider reform to better reflect the fact that when it comes to any contributory pension, including the Deputy's, there has to be or should be a link between the amount someone pays in and the amount he or she gets at the end. That is the contributory principle and it is not a bad one. It applies to the Deputy's pension and my pension so why should it not apply in social insurance as well - linking the amount someone pays in to the amount he or she gets back, with provision for caring and child rearing? I would hope that any new system would properly reflect that as well.

In the context of the gender breakdown of those affected, the figures are 58% women and 42% men. If we look at the population of people aged over 66 - as the Deputy is aware, women live longer - we can see that 54% are women and 46% are men. As a result, there is a 4% variance in the effect on men versus women. At the same time, the Deputy also knows that poverty rates are higher among older men than older women.

Men are slightly more likely to be in poverty in old age than women. The figure is 4% one way and 0.3% the other way, but it is certainly not as characterised or as one would think from the narrative and the discussion in the media that it was only women who were affected or it was 80:20 or 70:30. That is not the case, there is a difference of approximately 4% in the impact on men versus women.

The State pension age must rise. I would love to go out in the next few days and tell people they are going to be able to retire at 60 years, 62 years or 65 years but that would be dishonest and not true. When one goes back to the 1970s, the State pension age was 70 years and in those days the average man lived to the age of 68 years and the average woman lived to 72 years to 73 years. People paid into the system through tax and social insurance for perhaps 40 to 50 years and received a pension for two or three years.

Things have changed. It is wonderful that people are living much longer but obviously that creates a potential time bomb in our pension system. We have time to diffuse the time bomb but we have to do something about it. Part of that has to be increasing the State pension age. Every other country is doing it. It is just basic maths. It adds up. The State pension age will rise to 67 years in 2021, and 68 in 2028.

It is important to remind anybody listening and members of the committee that there is no compulsory retirement age in Ireland. The year in which one gets the State pension is not the year in which one has to retire. There have often been people who have to retire at 50 years or 60 years for some reason or another. We have always had a case of people who have had to retire from a particular job earlier than the State pension age, but the State pension age is not a compulsory retirement age. Many people work into the 70s because they choose to do so and you and I know many of those people. What is interesting is a case taken to the Workplace Relations Commission, which issued a ruling in the past week or two on the case of a person in Knock Airport. The Workplace Relations Commission confirmed that just because one has a contract until the age of 65 years, the employer essentially cannot make one retire at 65 years. It must have some objective basis in reason as to why that is the case. I think that is a very significant judgment and one that has major implications across the private sector that people cannot be forced to retire unless there is a good reason as to why he or she should do so. The obligation is therefore on the employer.

The public sector is different. I am sure as part of the talks and negotiations that the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, will have with the trade unions that the possibility of allowing public servants to continue to work to the State pension age will be part of those talks. I think that should be the case.