Gerard Craughwell (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Gilmore for being here today. I am sure there are many other things he could be doing apart from sitting here, but we feel that his experience on the international stage is vital. I will deal first and foremost with the referendum issue, if I may. I firmly believe that Britain, a country that fought in two world wars, will not back down even if they realise that their current course of action is to their detriment.

We are seeing the stiff upper lip from all sides over there now, so unless there is a Damascus moment I cannot see them changing. When I hear of the prospect for a referendum in Ireland I shudder. I am not anti-democratic, but I think we have learned down through the years that referendums in this country are rarely, if ever, about the subject. I would be interested to hear Mr. Gilmore's views on that.

Is there a way that we can accept any agreement negotiated on our behalf by Mr. Barnier and his team without going back to the people? How does Mr. Gilmore think that would rest with people for those who are currently in power or in opposition in the Oireachtas? When I hear the word referendum I really have to brace myself because Mr. Gilmore knows as well as I do the problems we have had with referendums down through the years in this country.

As regards the issue of security, I also have a fear that there would be a drift towards the NATO side of things rather than the Committee on Foreign Affairs. As an eminent person in foreign affairs himself, Mr. Gilmore has drawn attention to that, so it is clearly something he feels strongly about. There are particular security arrangements between Britain and the Republic of Ireland. Does Mr. Gilmore see those security arrangements being under threat in the event of Britain being isolated - for want of a better word - as a result of a hard Brexit? A soft Brexit may bring many advantages for all sides, but a hard one will force people into their respective corners. I wonder what Mr. Gilmore thinks that will do to security.

Mr. Gilmore mentioned the Good Friday Agreement and he was heavily involved in North-South politics during his time as Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs. There is a possibility for leverage in negotiations or, at least, discussions between Britain and Ireland through the Good Friday Agreement process, including the North-South ministerial bodies. While we cannot have bilateral negotiations, we can certainly inform the negotiations through discussions under the umbrella of the Good Friday Agreement. I may be wrong but I would be interested in Mr. Gilmore's view of that.

I have a concern that the Good Friday Agreement may finish up as a football on the pitch when push comes to shove between the EU and the UK. The Good Friday Agreement is sacrosanct to us here in Ireland, but it is not quite that sacrosanct in eastern Europe and places like that. Does Mr. Gilmore see the agreement as a leverage tool for us in discussions, and perhaps turning out to be a leverage tool for both negotiating sides when it comes to trying to iron out some of the more difficult things?

We do not have a Border per sein this country now, or at least there is no manned Border. None of us hopes a hard Brexit will happen and all sides seem to be committed to the notion of free travel back and forth. In the event of a hard Brexit, however, the reorganisation of the Defence Forces in 2013 has more or less moved all our troops south of a line from Dublin to Galway. We have very few troops left in Donegal or Dundalk, and none at all in Cavan and Monaghan. The same applies to the customs and excise service.

Would Mr. Gilmore agree that over time there has been an erosion or loss of corporate knowledge in the management of the Border? Should we now be war-gaming - although that may be a poor choice of words - or preparing for the likelihood of a hard Brexit? We could always pull back from it later, but should we now revisit the question of Border management to prepare in the event of things going wrong?