Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 6 April 2017

Seanad Committee on the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union

Engagement with former Taoiseach, Mr. Bertie Ahern

10:30 am

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I welcome former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, here today, thank him for coming and acknowledge that, among other things, if it was not for his efforts in 1998 and 2007, in the forms of the Belfast or Good Friday Agreement and the St. Andrews Agreement, we would not be talking about the same problems today. We would be talking about very different topics.

Mr. Ahern's thoughtful paper mentioned not merely the common travel area but also a common trading area. That cuts across what a number of people here have spoken about, that when one looks at what President Tusk said about the need for a flexible and imaginative solution for Ireland, that is the real challenge. It is defined by some method where the island of Ireland and perhaps Ireland and Britain can remain not merely in a common travel area but in a common trading area to the maximum possible extent. At a private meeting of this committee, Senator Mark Daly mentioned that there are precedents in the past including East and West Germany prior to unification which were considered as a common trading area for some purposes. It should not be impossible to devise some method for trade between these islands to be an exception to the general pattern of trading between the United Kingdom and the European Union. In that context, I agree with Mr. Ahern that our interest is that in the future the trading relationship remains as close as possible as it is today.

On the common travel area, we imagine a lot of difficulties but speaking to both Irish and British officials, I get the impression that EU nationals are going to be able to travel to the UK visa-free no matter what happens - they are not going to have to look for visas or queue up to be examined coming off the channel tunnel train or whatever, anymore than they are at the moment - and that the barriers to immigration that the British envisage will be in regard to health, welfare, housing, employment rights and so on and that we would be exempt from that if the common travel area arrangements that have existed between us go on. I hope that Mr. Ahern would agree that we should not be too worried about that.

I hope he agrees with that proposition. From our point of view, the real issue is trade.

Mr. Ahern was asked - I had never thought of it - why the Irish had never been given a veto in the same sense as the Spanish Government in negotiating on Gibraltar. Perhaps he might comment on this. I do not think we could ask for a veto over the entire agreement by reference to what Ireland and Britain could do as that would put us ahead of Germany, France and everybody else in the process. In a sense, the Spanish veto, such as it is, has been given because Gibraltar is so small and insignificant. It has a population of 30,000 and a border which is about the size of the peninsula of Howth. It is not of huge significance and I do not think we should be worried about it.

It occurs to me that, on paper, the idea is that Mr. Michel Barnier will negotiate for the European Union as a whole, that there is one negotiating position and that that is how everything appears on the surface. In reality, there will be massive diplomatic activity on a bilateral basis, between the British Government and every other government and I hope between the Irish Government and every other government, especially the British Government, to make sure our interests will not be forgotten. The notion that there will just be one negotiating position and that we will be sitting in the back seat watching does not give a fair picture.

The last issue I want to raise - it stems from some of the questions put to Mr. Ahern - is the future of the European Union. Mr. Ahern and I had the services of Dr. Ray Bassett in the Anglo-Irish negotiations. He is a very valuable and dedicated public servant. I do not think his view on exiting the European Union is one Ireland at an official level or the Irish people could contemplate economically. I do not think it is on the radar screen at this stage. Likewise, some people in the European Union are talking about the need to reconfigure the treaties and for far more integration. Some are talking about a two-speed European Union. It seems that that is really wishful thinking. For most people in Europe, there is a dynamic tension. I put it to Mr. Ahern that the new countries that joined the European Union when he was President of the European Council and all the rest do not want to have a "United States of Europe" dominated by Germany. They want things to remain in tension and the individual member states to be genuine partners in the European Union.

Does Mr. Ahern agree with two propositions, one of which is that we should not be seen to be getting itchy feet to leave the European Union because that would lead down the road to economic disaster? Ireland would become a satellite for the English or the Americans. Second, we should be careful not to be bounced into a new plan for Europe which would not enable us to look after our own affairs, especially now that we are losing a really strong ally. When I was attending a Justice and Home Affairs Council meeting, Britain was our most useful ally on 80% to 90% of items. Does Mr. Ahern agree with that proposition?

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