Mr. Des Carville:

I do not think I am saying that.

With due respect to the Senator, we recognise the challenges facing the sector. The challenges are well known and cover everything from the demographic profile of members to consumer borrowing generally. Borrowing, right across the board for credit unions and for all financial institutions has fallen since the financial crisis. This is just a fact. The lower interest rate environment being lower for longer is a problem in respect of returns for credit unions when they invest their surplus funds. There are a range of issues with which we are very familiar but there is only so much the Department of Finance can do to alleviate those issues.