Mr. Eoin Carroll:

On the cycle and earlier intervention for children, to be positive about it, there is something known as the age crime curve. Most people stop committing misdemeanours by the time they reach their late 20s. As a society, we wish to try to disrupt negative, inappropriate or bad behaviour, but, ultimately, we know that the majority of us will come out the other end and will live good and law-abiding lives into old age. I sometimes wonder whether it would have a better impact if we could keep children away from criminal justice agencies. It probably would. That is a conversation for another day, but I worry about the continual expansion of Garda diversion projects and question why a criminal justice agency is providing for what we would describe as a social or community need, given the risk of labelling the children involved.

On the cycle, we all know that schools are the first touch point for children in need. It is about trying to see how we can best use schools. As it is not an area of policy I examined, I should make that qualification. However, I speak to teachers. My wife is a teacher, as are her friends. Sometimes they do not know what to do if they have a concern about a child. It is not a concern about the level of child protection provided because schools have very much got their heads around the need for child protection. Tusla is also in place. To be honest, I do not know much about that area of policy, but I believe a school is the key engagement point for children in distress. I previously worked with Focus Ireland in homeless services for children. They were 15, 16 and 17 year olds who had all dropped out of school. Had the school system not failed them, the likelihood of their getting involved in anti-social behaviour could have been broken. Ultimately, however, we must always recognise that the majority of people in the age crime curve will get out of it. There have been studies in Scotland which suggest all children - I would say all of the population - commit approximately the same number of offences. The Scottish investigation showed that in many cases children from poorer communities essentially were receiving harsher punishment than children from middle class and wealthier communities, for want of a better term. There is a real issue in that regard. A longitudinal study in Scotland is identifying some of these points. Our behavioural tolerance is lower in poorer communities than it is in more wealthy communities, even though many people might think it has flipped the other way around.

As to why the Training Unit did not work, it was just a gradual slip. I do not know. It would be interesting to question the representatives of the Prison Officers Association who will appear next before the committee on that issue.

With regard to prison officers, the Prison Officers Association has changed dramatically. I have been involved in the area of penal reform for ten years and prison officers have moved. The study trip to Grendon Prison with them showed that to be the case. Prison officers are now receiving more education in Bellad House, the training college for prison officers.

It would have been better to provide prison officer training in a third level institution rather than Beladd House. The current approach reminds me of priests being sent to a training college for priests. Why should a priest not receive general arts education in a regular college, for want of a better description? I wonder why there needs to be a separate institution because prison officer trainees would benefit from interacting with students studying general arts courses such as English, philosophy, psychology, sociology.

Members should quiz the Prison Officers Association about the training unit. The association will be open to the idea of a therapeutic community because it has members who want to work in a different environment. There are many differences among prison officers, with some who do not want change and others who want to work in different environments. For example, work-in-training officers historically have been people with a background in a trade who wanted to work in this area rather than what we might stereotypically think of as turnkeys.

On the facilities in Germany and the Grendon and Hydebank facilities, Germany is where it is at for young adults. My German is not great but there is a description in our report. What I would like to see, which is what one sees in Grendon, is therapeutic practices being introduced in the prison system. Whereas we do not need to create a prison system consisting exclusively of Grendon type institutions, we need therapeutic and restorative practices. Some interesting work is being done in a school in Tallaght, in which the Senator may be interested, on creating schools that are based around restorative practices. The programme in Tallaght is involved in this. This approach would be a major game changer in the prison system in terms using more restorative practices to deal with conflict.

The issue of prison population has been dealt with relatively well by the Prison Service, although it must continue to work towards achieving a target population of 2,750. Segregation remains a significant issue and one which the Prison Officers Association may also raise. Segregation must be challenged. Fr. Peter McVerry will give an interesting description of the colour coding system used in Mountjoy Prison to indicate who can associate with whom. Perhaps we should address this culture of machismo, gangs and non-association with others. Prison provides a space for doing this because segregation is an issue.