Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Carroll for his presentation and for all the good work his organisation is doing in this area. These seems to be a broad consensus that prison does not work and that we do not do things as well as we should or make the changes that we should. Has that more to do with ideology or with cost? Many of the initiatives that I would like to see in prisons would probably cost a few bob more to do them properly, particularly measures that would help prisoners to develop properly and to create the facilities that are required to support them when they leave prison rather than just abandoning them. Does Mr. Carroll think the cost factor is stronger than the ideology, which has not gone away and which may be summarised in the words, "They misbehaved so to hell with them"? The punishment element has also not totally disappeared.

He mentioned that the fact that both Cork Prison and the Midlands Prison mimicked prison designs from the 19th century. Was there much dialogue and consultation about how those prisons should be designed? Was much input sought from progressive groups that might have had something more interesting offer? It is scary that they mimic 19th century designs given significant money was spent building them and they were not done right. What approach was taken? Who made the decisions that left us with new prisons that were outdated before they were finished?

Mr. Carroll made a good, interesting point about fixed numbers. I recall when Deputy Daly and I were arrested in respect of the Shannon incident, we were taken to Limerick Prison but the prison officials would not take us because they said the prison was full. I am not sure whether it was because it was genuinely full or whether they did not want us but we did not get in anyway. My understanding is there are two prisoners to a cell in Cork Prison which is crazy given it is the most recent prison to be built. Would Mr. Carroll recommend that cell numbers be reduced to one? Does he have a particular number in mind in the context of the fixed number he mentioned?

There is no doubt that some people are sent to prison for ridiculous reasons. Should all the judges be sent back to school and given a little education in these matters? If they are still sending people, especially women, to prison for theft in supermarkets, we have a problem. Does Mr. Carroll think we should have a chat with the judges?