Mr. Michael McGuane:

I will make a couple of points in reply. Local democracy is a very important ingredient in any democracy. Some people are of the view that there has been an erosion of local democracy - "democratic deficit" is the phrase that is used. Much of the thinking behind all of this restructuring took place a number of years ago during the recession when the fashion in public administration seemed to be to centralise and rationalise everything towards the centre. As we were walking up to Leinster House today, we saw cranes everywhere and it is obvious things are beginning to change again. People even in Senator Higgins's profession are questioning now the wisdom of doing away with the local town councils. It sounded like a good idea at the time but people are beginning to have second thoughts about it.

It is very important to empower local communities because the energy that generates inspires volunteerism. My colleague made a very good point that when we talk about volunteers, we are talking about highly trained people. They are not just people who ramble in off the side of the road, sit down and start giving their opinions. Those people have spent a lot of time attending training sessions, a point Ms Barry has made clear.