Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I wish to raise a couple of issues. I thank the delegates for coming before the committee. I am sorry that we have dragged them away from their other responsibilities as we know very well about the good job they do.

Before I forget it, I will mention the Red Cross first. I was going to bring up the issues of programme also. Reference was made to the importance of celebrating achievement and validating people's experience. It is critically important to normalise prisoners as productive members of society. We have seen the value of this and other programmes.

We had organised a visit to the Oireachtas for some of the participants in the scheme - current and former inmates who are willing to give up their time and explain to colleagues what that job involves. Everything was ready to go but, as members know, it was pulled at the last minute. My belief is that somebody in the Department of Justice and Equality probably panicked and thought the gutter press would go on a rampage about criminals drinking tea and eating sandwiches in the Dáil while crime spirals, or the usual sensationalised rubbish. That is the only reason I can see because it is utterly valid for those people to come here and talk about this programme. We want to do that again. Without putting the witnesses on the spot in any way, our belief is that this is valid and would be good. I presume the witnesses do not have any fears that there would be any negative consequences. Nobody will be harmed by it. Could the witnesses give us their views on that? Would they like to come in? I do not mean to be unfair or put them on the spot but could the witnesses talk more about that programme and how it would be good if they came here and presented it?

I thought Mr. Donnellan's point that, for the first time, the Irish Prison Service is in a position to really deal with the problems and tackle the rehabilitative end was interesting. I have no hesitation in saying that this ideology and ethos is at the top of the Irish Prison Service and is shared by many of the staff. The question of whether we are any nearer achieving it is probably a different story. It is not because of any lack of will. I fully appreciate that but there is a huge gap in terms of delivering it. The drugs problem starts with sentencing. I do not understand why people who have a drug problem are being sentenced to prison. They should be sentenced to some rehabilitative facility if they wish. What is the witnesses' level of knowledge of people who are being cajoled, threatened or forced into bringing drugs back to prison when they are on a day out, possibly to pay off a debt? That vicious circle is very difficult to address. Even when people are trying to get off drugs, if they are in a chaotic environment where they are isolated, the instinct to go back to drugs is there. The challenges in this area are huge. Do the witnesses have any comments to make about criminal involvement sinking in?

Ultimately, training is key. Following on from the points made by Deputy Jack Chambers, I still do not really get what is happening in the training unit. The explanation did not satisfy me. The training unit as an ideology was ahead of its time in the European context. The training unit in Mountjoy was very high spec and involved working with people who were drug-free, rehabilitating them and normalising their life inside. It is the only facility in Dublin that does so. The inmates sleep and eat there, and the staff ratios are incredibly low. It is probably the cheapest facility the Irish Prison Service runs and yet there have been no assaults and no problems with staff and inmates. I could not believe it when I heard that it will be shut down in three months time. I do not see why an old people's facility could not be developed alongside it because it is about more than training. It is about adjusting to a way of life and it is incredibly efficient. I would be very worried if it was to go because from where will that experience and acclimatising be replaced? I do not see how.

In respect of training for staff, there is a view among some prisoners that new staff often come in and are "up for it" with lots of new ideas but that gets knocked out of them fairly quickly. They become demoralised or institutionalised. Some of the older staff then feel that they have been there for far longer and are not appreciated. Sometimes they feel that they are put in vulnerable positions where they do not get backup. They can become dehumanised themselves because of being cut off and the circumstances they are exposed to. While there may be some access to supports, it is never enough in any job. We need to pay a lot of attention to staff in terms of welfare because the environment plays with people's heads and affects the way they think. People can become dehumanised and institutionalised on all sides and that needs to be addressed. There is a need for enhanced training. I am interested in the mental health training programme that was mentioned but that should be mandatory for everybody and should be of a high level. That obviously means money. I am not blaming the witnesses, but is that their view?

How many people are in prison because of society's failure to fill the gap caused by shutting down all these horrendous institutions we read about day in and day out, even the psychiatric hospitals? Previously, people who had problems were sent to these hospitals and locked behind closed doors. Nobody wants that but there is a huge gap. How many of these people are now in prison so that the management and staff have to pick up the pieces regarding people who need help? I know evidence was given to the Committee of Public Accounts that there are 30 inmates with severe psychiatric problems and it is the staff who must deal with them. In respect of the relationship with the Central Mental Hospital and how it could be improved, it is completely unacceptable that management, prison staff and prisoners are left in a situation where, when somebody requires urgent medical help, only one person is taken in for a couple of weeks and then sent back again. It is just not on. I am amazed nobody has been killed in our prisons. It is incredible. Is there anything we can do to deal with that issue? To me, that is the key. If people who should not be in prison at all got help for issues, it would simplify things. If we got all of these people out of prison and got them treatment, we could do what they do in Norway where, when somebody comes into prison, he or she is told they will be working with a specific person until he or she leaves prison. The day ones go in, one is on a pathway to how one reconnects when one goes back out. Unless we get there, the rates will be higher. These are just a few observations.