Ms Bríd O'Brien:

I do not propose to read the submission which we sent to the committee as it is rather lengthy. However, I would like to comment on some of the statistics provided in it.

In regard to long-term unemployment, in a lot of the public discourse there has been a presumption that long-term unemployment is primarily an issue for young people but it is in fact an issue for people of every age. Access to employment is particularly difficult for those who live in areas where there has been less employment, less economic development and where there are many issues associated with social exclusion. It is also an issue that is raised with us by people who are older, many of whom had good jobs before the crisis or were employers and now find themselves, because of their age and a skill mismatch or not, unable to access employment. There are a range of challenges facing us in this area as we move forward.

We have also included in our submission a snap-shot of activation programmes. The month of November is the most recent in respect of which data is available and so we have reviewed the two-year period from November last to 2008. Programmes such as Tús, JobBridge and Gateway did not exist then. The first statistics for Tús and JobBridge were only seen in November 2012 and for Gateway in 2014. What we found interesting is how the back-to-work enterprise allowance has grown over that period. We would be conscious that for many unemployed people, be it because of age, geographical or other forms of discrimination, self employment can be an option. Further supports and links to the wider enterprise supports available would be a welcome development.

Community employment has remained at in or around the 22,000 mark. It plays a critical role. For many people it is the only access point to the labour market. Following on from a point made earlier about JobBridge, it is dealt with on the Department's website under the heading "stepping stones". Our concern is that often progression from JobBridge into the wider labour market is not at a rate we would like to see. Also, in terms of the age profile, it tends to be older unemployed people who participate in JobBridge. An issue that is constantly raised with us by older unemployed people is whether Ireland ever intends to address the issue of ageism in the labour market or if people who are older and unemployed are to be only referred into programmes such as community unemployment. This is an issue on which there is need for serious reflection and in respect of which we need to make serious headway.

Another issue of concern for us is the figures on full-time training. In November 2008, there were over 10,000 people on specific skills training. According to the most recent figures available there are now only over 7,000 people in training. The CSO data for the "training in school" figure, which is for September, indicates that in-take was the lowest ever, which is very striking. We are hearing all the time from commentators, employers and so on that there is a skills gap. It is worrying that up-take is falling in one of the programmes that in the past had a good track record in terms of addressing skills gaps and giving people skills that were marketable. Likewise, take-up in terms of the back-to-education allowance is falling back to the figures of the pre-crisis period, despite the fact it was expanded a lot during the crisis. Of concern to us are the findings of the ESRI report and the huge challenges this throws up. Given the strong relationship between educational status, the inference is that if a person does not attain a good educational status the first time around even though he or she may do so the second time around it may not be to his or benefit. That is a very serious concern for us.

In regard to the headings used throughout the report, we have used the ones that are the three strategic objectives of the Department of Social Protection.

We have used them for two reasons. We feel the first one, putting the client at the centre of services and policies, is absolutely critical. We have concerns as to whether that is happening. The system has become increasingly more directive. The feedback we are getting is that people feel they are being told to go on things rather than being able to make informed decisions about their future. They are being directed on to programmes such as Tús, Gateway or community employment while perhaps not getting the opportunity to re-educate. They may be sent on a re-education or training programme that may not be suitable for them and somebody else might have really welcomed that opportunity.

That is the challenge. With all the change that is in the system, there is that challenge to get that matching piece right, taking the time when people are engaged both initially and subsequently to get to know the skills and experience they have, what opportunities are available and what needs to happen now to support that person to get into a decent and sustainable job. It is in everybody's interest that we get people into decent and sustainable jobs. Clearly it is in the interests of the individuals and that of their family and community. It is also in the State's interest. If we get more people into better, decent and sustainable jobs, there would be less recourse to in-work supports such as FIS. It is really important to get that piece right and try to build the services around people who are unemployed and others of working age who are looking for work and looking for supports in trying to find work.

Another objective of the Department is to drive cost, efficiency and effectiveness. We changed that slightly to pursue greater equality, efficiency and effectiveness. We need a system that is more effective and engaging with people, and that meets their needs in ensuring there is good local knowledge in the local Intreo office and other aspects of the employment service, which include the local employment service, employability services, JobPath and programmes like the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP. We need to get a better system and that leads to better use of resources and better outcomes for everybody. It is critical that equality and social inclusion principles are built in at the heart of that. We need to try to meet the needs of people, including those who are unemployed, parenting alone, living with a disability or whatever.

We would like to see some practical steps addressed. For example, people on jobseeker's payment can take up work for up to 13 weeks or move into education or training and their payment is put on hold. That is not broadcast well by the Department. The only place it is mentioned on its website is on the frequently asked questions, question No. 20, on the jobseeker's page. Someone would need to know it is there in order to find it in the first place. That is something the Department should promote because it could make a big difference to people who live in areas where there is seasonal work or Christmas work. One of the best forms of activation is supporting people to be able to take up work, build up their curricula vitae and their contacts so that they can find employment.

Likewise we are conscious that if people who have been unemployed for a long time and whose only income is their welfare payment go from a weekly support to a job with a two-weekly or monthly payment, it can give rise to an income gap. There is a mechanism through the supplementary allowance system called "payment pending wages" that the State could use. It would be a small investment but could make a huge difference to a person taking that step, particularly if he or she has family and is concerned over whether they will be able to provide over that period. It is a mechanism that could be used in a more constructive way.

The target is to get unemployment down to 6% by 2020. All going well we may achieve that but if we do, it still leaves many people who will meet the official unemployment definition, which is they genuinely have been seeking work in recent weeks and are in a position to take up work in the coming weeks.

We are aware that there are many people who, for various reasons, have lost heart trying to find work, do not answer "Yes" to one or other of those questions or may have caring responsibilities and believe it will take them longer to resolve those issues if they find a job. They may face logistical difficulties in getting from where they live to the location of the potential job. Initially, they may not be in a position to provide their own transport. There are a range of reasons people do not answer "Yes" to those two questions. The official unemployment figure captures a particular picture, but it does not necessarily capture everybody.

In terms of people of working age on other payments, because of the way Intreo was designed and rolled out at the time of crisis, the system now tends to slot them in rather than consider a way to design it to ensure it is more inclusive. In terms of reaching that target, with Brexit and other concerns that could be an even bigger challenge but there is also a real danger that many people will be left where they are now and that Ireland will grow and prosper but they may be left behind and not get a look in. This time around, we must ensure we do not leave people behind or with a sense that they have been parked in their local communities because they are a Traveller, parenting alone or have a disability. This time around, we must ensure that we address those issues.

From that point of view, developing staff structures and processes that have the capacity to provide services for people from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of issues is critical. In terms of the way the Department meets its obligations under section 42(1) of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act, which is the positive duty now placed on public bodies to eliminate discrimination, promote equality of opportunity and treatment of its staff and persons to whom it provides services, and protect the human rights of its members, staff and the persons to whom it provides services, it is critical that that is done well.

From our perspective, it is important that a new socio-economic ground is introduced to the equality legislation to capture and address the discrimination many unemployed people experience. The CSO report of some years ago, which was based on the quarterly national household survey, was striking in that the second highest rate of discrimination identified was of people who were unemployed. That was identified because the survey captured people's principal economic status. We must address that issue and ensure that this positive development also meets the needs and addresses the issues facing people who are unemployed.

Brexit could be both a plus and a minus at the same time. We could see many job losses but we could also see job gains depending on how some of that works out but it is more than likely they will be at two different ends of the labour market and require very different skill sets. How do we address that and, in particular, ensure that those currently distanced from the labour market do not find themselves even more distanced from that market as it emerges? There is a target in the programme for Government to create an additional 200,000 jobs, of which 135,000 will be outside Dublin. There is a target to get the unemployment rate to within 1% of the national rate. When we consider the range of issues facing different parts of the State, meeting that will be particularly challenging. We know from feedback we get from both individual members and affiliates working throughout the country that the creation and maintenance of decent, sustainable jobs in their areas is critical.

In that regard, the way policy programmes such as Pathways to Work fit in alongside the Action Plan for Jobs and the Action Plan for Education is critical. We would be anxious to hear from a range of providers and policy makers in the education sector that the referrals to education and training courses are not being made from employment services under the remit of the Department of Social Protection. Given that the skills issue has been identified by so many people, that is something we need to get right. Otherwise, we would be concerned that even if all the fears about what is happening in the United States and in Britain do not come to pass, there still will be significant employment and social inclusion challenges facing unemployed people. That is an issue we must ensure we address well.

It is critical that active inclusion is built into the way policy making is designed and implemented, that services are person-centred for everybody of working age and that they are proactive and supportive.

It is also important that there is a proactive and full provision of information in order that people can make informed choices. In addition there must be flexibility in the system to facilitate participation. One issue of which I am sure the committee is aware is in respect of employment programmes. At one stage pre-crisis there was a real attempt to make sure that the terms and conditions that were associated with community employment applied across all programmes, particularly in terms of access to them and then with the crisis there tended to be a focus just on jobseeker's payments. One of the issues that has been raised with us is the difficulty facing people coming out of prison, for example, for whom perhaps a Tús programme would be an option. It is important that some of the anomalies that have arisen are addressed so that the system is inclusive of everyone who needs support.

Supportive services that are needed to help people to reskill include the provision of adequate and affordable child care and transport. There is also a need for good integration across Departments and agencies. Labour market activation will not produce the outcomes we would like to see unless there is good engagement between the Department of Social Protection, the Department of Education and Skills, the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, the Department with responsibility for community and local government, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and the Department of Justice and Equality.

Employment programmes have an important role to play but we would like to see better outcomes from them in terms of access to the wider labour market and to ensure that they are a stepping stone for people. It is important that positive duty is incorporated and there is active inclusion at the heart of the system. We must be realistic about the resources required to realise those aims. We must ensure the staff providing the services in the State sector, the voluntary sector and the private, for-profit sector, are working from a certain ethos and have the resources to provide them and ensure we get better outcomes for everybody.