David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

With respect, I think the Minister has missed the point entirely. When I made my point that this was not about the rights and wrongs of his decision, I meant that sincerely. My point was that, in terms of process, he has made an announcement that he can achieve €120 million in efficiencies. The first question is why that was not identified at budget time. What people will reasonably ask is, if these efficiencies can be made, why were they not found earlier. The Minister has a responsibility to not just say in broad, bland, general terms that we have found €120 million. I cannot explain to anybody outside this room exactly where 1 cent of that will be saved because the Minister has given us no information whatsoever. We are the budgetary scrutiny committee yet I have not one scrap of paper in front of me which tells me where that €120 million will be found. That is the reality and it is the point I am making.

With regard to the capital spend, again, I do not think the Minister has addressed the point. He said earlier that he and the Government are looking at the review of public-private partnerships and the possibility of more off-balance sheet options. That is a tacit acceptance the fiscal rules are not working. If we have to look at these types of mechanisms, and we have seen how they have backfired on the Government with Irish Water, I do not think it is the way to go. To me, it is a recognition that these mechanisms have not worked.

The Minister made the point that this was not about comparing cash amounts and I have heard the Minister for Finance make the point a number of times that we should not focus just on how much we are putting into public services and that it is not about comparing cash amounts. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, makes that point here again today yet, nonetheless, that is exactly what he did in his response to me. He talked about comparing the amounts of money that were put into the health service in the past when he said there is a record level of investment and so on - he is the one that made that comparison. I am pointing out to the Minister the reality that whatever he might say about the health service and about how much is being spent, we have problems in regard to capacity. More patients are being outsourced to private hospitals, there is more agency spend, there are missed targets in regard to people waiting to see consultants within 18 months and there are record levels of patients on hospital trolleys. That is the reality. When we have the director general of the HSE saying that €9 billion is necessary over the next ten years, it should be a wake-up call. I have heard nothing from the Minister to tell me that will be addressed in the short, medium or long term.