Mr. Tony O'Brien:

They were the budget holders, the contract holders and the funders. The same issue that I have just described arose. The best example was not a voluntary but a statutory hospital, in other words, a HSE hospital.

Deputy Kate O'Connell made a point about ambition. Of course, we should be ambitious. The point I was making was it might have been possible if each citizen stayed within a geographical territory to avail of primary, social, mental health and acute care services. In a country of this size, with its distribution of tertiary and quaternary care services, as is already the case, we can expect to see patients travelling great distances to avail of specialty services. The Deputy suggested it, but if we had as an objective having a full range of services within geographically defined areas or a person receiving all of his or her services within a single-----