Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for making the journey here today. I also thank the Chairman for facilitating this hearing because I had suggested that we needed to discuss this topic. Those of us from the Oireachtas who have made regular visits to Maghaberry Prison and met the various authorities - from one very brief meeting with the previous Secretary of State to meetings with the Minister for Justice, the prison authorities, the Prisoner Ombudsman and the prison service - can concur with everything that has been said. We are very aware of the frustration in the prison. If I had to sum it up, there seems to be an almost deliberate attempt to treat prisoners in an undignified way and not to allow for their dignity at all. It is petty things. It was appalling that the attempts in Roe House to commemorate the 1916 Rising were prevented. We have also visited the Unionist Bush House. There is no doubt that there is a difference in the atmosphere and in the relationships between the staff and the prisoners there. Progress similar to that made with the PSNI, whose members are coming from various backgrounds, has not been made with the prison staff. What is the witnesses' opinion in that regard? Do they see any movement being made in that regard? Would that help?

On the education aspect, we have met those prisoners who are totally frustrated. Prisons are there to punish people. However, they are also there to rehabilitate and help them when they leave. There are prisoners that know they will be there for years, yet there is nothing available to them. What can we do to push the issue further?

There were lengthy remands in the past. Will Mr. Finucane indicate whether there has been an improvement in that situation? Are more people getting bail? A couple of prisoners who are out on bail wanted to attend this meeting today. It might even have been good to hear from them. However, the conditions of their bail meant they could not attend. We are on a small island and they would have been coming with reputable people who, I am sure, would have guaranteed they would return, but it could not happen. Issues such as lengthy remands and the revocation of licences are contributing to the atmosphere in the jail. Tony Taylor was mentioned. I met his son, who has special needs. How that family was treated was absolutely appalling.

We have been assured every time that the prisoners want a conflict-free environment, but we seem to be the only people who accept what they are saying. There have been no physical assaults on staff in Roe House, unlike other parts of the prisons. We have the statistics. The expense involved is raised. However, if the prison agreed with the controlled movement situation, there would not be a need for as many staff. We have visited the prison in Portlaoise and the contrast is totally and utterly amazing. The prisoners put it to us recently that it is all process and no progress. The witnesses have now mentioned that there will be another review that has not even started. How will the prisoners feel about that one?

There appears to be a conflict in that things seem to get caught in a disagreement over whether the Minister of State or the Minister for Justice have a role to play. When we started going up first, we had interesting letters and, at times, it seemed as if they were not sure who was responsible for what, but that has been clarified. It is always under this term of "national security". Do the witnesses consider the new Secretary of State as being more progressive on these issues?

There are obvious miscarriages of justice. There are people detained in Roe House on the basis of dubious, so-called evidence. They are left there languishing. There have been examples of their parole commission hearings being cancelled at the last minute although the legal teams were ready to proceed. Their entire schedules were disrupted. We have also had examples of men coming out after their licence had been revoked with no charges preferred. They were innocent, yet their lives have been turned upside down and what they had been trying to do in their lives was not able to go further.

It is my opinion that there is a lack of political will. When it comes to Maghaberry Prison, the attitude appears to be to shut the door, throw away the key and forget about it. A few of us in the Dáil have repeatedly raised the matter with the various Ministers with responsibility for foreign affairs through Topical Issues and the tabling of parliamentary questions. Albeit only a few of us are involved but there is probably a little more going on down here than is being done by the parties in the North. There seems to be a complete and utter lack of political will to move this forward. As noted, unless this particular aspect is sorted, the rest will not be either.