Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the presence of Mr. Sheridan and Dr. Soares. I compliment them and their colleagues in both organisations who have done exceptionally good work over the years, much of it under the radar. During the previous Dáil, they had the opportunity to make a presentation to this committee as well, which was worthwhile. I am very glad that both these witnesses are with us today to speak on a subject we did not think would confront us. Dr. Soares spoke at a conference that I organised in Cavan on this subject matter back in July 2015. He outlined the scenarios of the issues we are now discussing. At that time we thought that we would not have to discuss those issues post June of this year. With regard to Mr. Sheridan's comments on the free movement of people between Switzerland and Germany, I presume that is facilitated by the Schengen Agreement. I do not envisage that Ireland will be a member of the Schengen area and Britain will not be a member either. There is a real difficulty in regard to the movement of people. I think that as a country, Government and Parliament we want to send out a clear message to the British early on that we will not be the control zone in regard to potential immigration or possible emigration to their island, Britain. That will not be the job of the Irish people, the Government or our authorities. We want to make that very clear from early on.

Mr. Sheridan made the point that the EU Council comprising the other 27 member states will be negotiating with Britain and that we will have one twenty-seventh of an influence. I sincerely hope that it will not be reduced to that. Take the example of Estonia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, I am sure they are not losing sleep at the moment about Britain leaving the European Union. They are not worried about the obstacles or difficulties for us on the island of Ireland. I sincerely hope that other countries with whom we have had good relationships for many years will be taking a keen interest in the potential and the difficulties, the obstacles for our island. As Chairman of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, Trade and Defence, I meet ambassadors from the European Union states and in fairness to those whom I have met in the past few months, most were anxious to know our views on what we see as the major obstacles and difficulties. They were interested in what we need to put in place to try to deal with the adverse impact of Brexit and to try to ensure that the progress that has been made on this island, particularly since the 1990s, is not lost. Dr. Soares would have heard me make the following point in July 2015 during our conference in County Cavan that as a country, both North and South, we have underestimated the progress that has been made. I would have been arguing at this committee and in the Dáil during the previous Government that we were not maximising the potential of the Good Friday Agreement. Let us leave that point to one side. We need to do a great deal of that yet and in terms of the successor agreements to the Good Friday Agreement. At the same time on the positive side, there has been significant progress. I think the authorities, both North and South have not measured adequately the progress that has been made in economic terms in the great improvement in North-South trade and in east-west trade as well. People from my county and from Deputy Declan Breathnach's county right across the southern Ulster region were sourcing jobs in Northern Ireland and similarly people from the northern side of our province of Ulster were coming South as well to seek jobs in Cavan-Monaghan, Donegal or elsewhere.

We have not estimated sufficiently the progress that has been made. Much of that progress was made with a significant contribution by the European Union. In fairness to the other member states in the European Union, they were not mean in the allocation of funding and were not begrudging. To a member state, I think they were supportive of the efforts of the Irish and British Governments and the political parties on the island to reach that agreement and ensure we built on it. That goes back to Dr. Soares's concluding remarks on the need to continue that work. We are not there in the peace process yet. We have to be mindful that we need to keep nurturing and cultivating it because it is a relatively young process. We need to make further progress particularly for the less advantaged in our communities. There are many areas in Northern Ireland, in the Border counties, that are severely disadvantaged and thankfully programmes funded by both Governments, and very much supported by the European Union, have made a significant difference in many of the less advantaged communities in rural and urban areas. I fully endorse the point made by Dr. Soares on the need for commitments by the Irish and British Governments to a PEACE V programme. Had Dr. Soares been present at our last meeting he would have seen the Minster for Finance from the Northern Ireland Executive, Máirtin Ó Muilleoir and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Flanagan make presentations and engage very strongly with the committee. The message coming from the then Chancellor at Downing Street was of the significant doubt about even honouring the commitments made in regard to the present INTERREG and PEACE IV programmes. My colleague, Deputy Breathnach and I had secured special debates in the Dáil on that issue. We never got enough clarity as to whether the programmes that have been put in place and commitments made by both Governments in terms of the European Union would be honoured regardless of when Britain exits the EU.

Solemn commitments have been made and programmes have been drawn up on that basis. I entirely agree with the proposition that post-Brexit we should talk about a PEACE V programme to be funded by the British and Irish Governments. I am pessimistic about what we heard at our last meeting but that is not to take away from the great value that could come from further programmes.

On the issue of whether there will be a hard or soft Border, I hope we get to the position where there will not be a visible Border or visible controls and checks. Even if there is none, there will be costs on businesses and it will make some of our businesses less competitive. When Britain leaves the European Union, the position will be that if I have a product leaving counties Cavan or Monaghan and going to northern Europe or another continent, it will go first to Britain, which will be a non-EU member state, and then enter the European Union again. We do not have a ferry service to the north of Europe. As an island, we send a lot of product to northern Europe and we depend on sending it through Europe to other destinations. Much of that product transits Britain. Do we envisage a situation where there will have to be trade agreements between the EU and Britain and other countries? Do we envisage a situation where a product leaving Cavan will go to Britain, which will be a non-EU member state, then to another EU member state and may exit that state to arrive at its final destination? Do we not think there will be a check on that product at some stage? Every check that takes place creates additional costs and makes our products less competitive. That is my big worry. I sincerely hope we do not have a hard Border. I grew up in a Border parish so I know what it is like as a youngster, for example, going to a football match and being stopped and not having free movement of people, goods or services.

I compliment Mr. Sheridan, Dr. Soares and their colleagues in their organisations for the excellent work they have done over the years, a lot of which is not known to the public. They have informed all our thinking on the potential in this situation. Mr. Andy Pollack spoke often and spoke well, as did Mr. Sheridan and Dr. Soares in the Centre for Cross-Border Studies, on the need for us to maximise the potential of the Good Friday Agreement. We would love to be here today talking about that and not talking about possibly going backwards.