Mr. Robert Watt:

Yes, and that is how this issue has been addressed in this report where we do not have names. Their issues relate to one case, but there are no names and the Comptroller and Auditor General does not talk about the names of the bodies. However, of course, there is also the freedom of information legislation, FOI, which has separate legal provisions, which in terms of making information available would be probably far more open than is revealed by the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. That is another consideration. We are dealing with FOI requests on these matters.

I know a lot of the issues have been dealt with in the to and fro. I make the point again about the way in which the value of severance payments is set out in the report. The majority of the value relates to early pensions and added years as opposed to upfront payments. When it is set out, there is a tendency to say that an individual received €1.1 million last week, which of course they did not. In that particular case it was all related to early payment of pension. I am not suggesting for one minute that it is not significant. Of course it is and it is absolutely correct to discount it, as the report does, but in most cases the benefit relates to early retirement.

In all these cases we just look at the cost of the terminations - the cost of the exiting. We do not look at the benefits for the organisations. That is something, of course, which neither the Comptroller and Auditor General nor any of us here can talk about. The benefits for the organisations in many cases could be multiples of the cost. If it is a situation in an organisation where the relationship between a very senior person and the Minister or other colleagues has broken down, there could be damage to the organisation which may be looking after hundreds of millions of euro of taxpayers' money.

When we are looking at the costs, particularly when it relates to the discretionary payments, and there are 14 cases over the period, we need to have in the back of our minds that these are done for very good reasons and there is a benefit. With the best will in the world, unless we want to spend our time sitting down with the relevant, manager, HR manager and legal adviser, we will not really get a sense of the basis for the agreement. To an extent we have ultimately to trust people who are closer to the challenges they face. That is very important, but I-----