David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

We need to get a complete picture of controls in respect of section 38 and 39 organisations and even beyond that. It was interesting to note in the report that while the focus was on the organisation in question and partially on the Health Service Executive, the report also raises questions for the Companies Registration Office in terms of its processes and also for the Revenue Commissioners. Clear issues arise in respect of Revenue controls.

In all the committee's exchanges wit the director general of the HSE, he stated the controls had not failed. At the meeting, Mr. McCarthy made the point that controls of themselves are not perfect and have not been designed to be perfect. While we all accept that point, compliance is as important as controls are and controls are only effective if compliance measures work. In this case, they clearly did not work as it has been accepted that almost all of them were missed. Controls may not be the problem but compliance certainly is a problem.

This is not only an issue for the HSE. I tabled a parliamentary question to Revenue on section 38 and 39 organisations. The response I received indicated that between 2007 and 2016, Revenue conducted 7,500 desk management interventions in relation to section 38 and 39 organisations and 1,690 compliance issues were identified. These are extraordinary figures, which indicate that there is a problem. The committee needs to look at the complete picture. If we are talking about compliance but not controls, we must assess the information provided to us, regroup as a committee and identify how we can look at the complete picture, who we need to invite before us and what controls failed.

It would be simplistic to focus on the HSE when we know that different information was provided to the Companies Registration Office, for example, different dates of birth for the same person, maiden names rather than married names and all sorts of other stuff. A range of issues also arose in Revenue, including unpaid salaries. Are these matters peculiar to the organisation in question? Given the response I received from Revenue, that is obviously not the case. The committee will have to carry out an assessment of this matter, although I am not sure how we would approach it.