Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein) | Oireachtas source

I think that is the right approach because we obviously need to reflect on all of it. However, there is also a broader issue in respect of the section 38s and section 39s. So far, where difficulties, controversies and malpractice have been exposed, in some cases it is almost accidental or it is at least happening in a piecemeal fashion. Therefore, we need to consider how we can get a global view not just of the controls but also of compliance across section 38s and section 39s. I am mindful that the Chairman has a smaller cohort of section 38s and quite a large number of section 39s.

The Comptroller and Auditor General might be able to assist the committee in suggesting a way in which we can be satisfied that there is not only control but also compliance in respect of public pay policy, proper use of public funds and good governance. I do not know what that model is but I know that we cannot lurch from one episode to another just as and when they come into the public domain. We need to have a much more comprehensive and reassuring framework through which we can examine this matter in its totality. Of course, we need the HSE's full co-operation in that regard.

I do not know if the Chairman or clerk to the committee can do so but we need to come up with something that allows us to do that.