Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent) | Oireachtas source

Does the Minister consider energy saving measures to be important in the White Paper? I am aware that in schools where walls have been insulated and new types of lighting and more efficient boilers have been installed, the cost of energy has been reduced by up to 20%. We must focus on that area. Many homes throughout the country could benefit if the retrofit grant was made more widely available rather than a certain amount every year. I realise we will not resolve all of this in one year but that is where I believe the biggest saving can be made.

The Minister spoke about community and citizens' engagement and referred to wind energy. I gather from what he said that what communities want and what the Minister is talking about will be two different things. Given the distances communities want for the wind turbines to be set back and what the Minister says, it will not be possible to fit enough of them in the country. Community engagement or involvement therefore goes out the window. This argument about wind has been ongoing for the last five to seven years and I could fill this room with engineers and very professional people on the matter.

In fact, I read an article in recent days about how two Google engineers have spent the past ten years studying wind. They have said it is one of the most uneconomic things in which a country could be involved. It has come to the stage where, for the benefit of both the public and the country, we need an open forum involving the Department, the people who maintain it is effective and economically feasible and those who can supply facts and figures. The Minister threw out a figure. He said 18.2% of electricity is created through wind energy. That figure does not tell us everything. The way the figures are taken mean a producer could be producing that amount of electricity on a graph but the real point is the amount used. Sometimes wind turbines produce at night-time when the electricity is not used and, to put it frankly, it is being dumped. We are paying investors for something that we are not utilising.

The Minister referred to the 90-day reserves of oil. If oil is cheap, would it not be a good thing to do a deal with another country to buy it in advance? The Minister said they could store a certain amount. Should we not up the ante if oil is cheap? That would give security as well. Can we not consider doing more of that? I know there is an oil well hidden at the bottom of Cork. We may get more oil wells around the country, if we are lucky enough. Next year or the year after, Whitegate will be put out of commission. I understand the Canadians are getting out of it. What is the plan for the future there?

How much of our own gas are we getting at present? Is it 60% or 70%? For how long is this forecast to last?

We have to be honest and straight with people. We cannot jump away from fossil fuels for many years to come. Such a move does not happen overnight. We have talked about this before. With luck, the number of people in employment in the country will increase by 150,000. I realise the Minister has discussed decoupling these points. However, agriculture has a major input into the economy of the country. I will give some credit to the Taoiseach. When he was at the summit on climate change in recent days, he called it. He said Ireland has come through a torrid time. We cannot go jumping headfirst into something now. We cannot all live in tents. We cannot have an ideal world in which we eat nothing or have no money. That is not the way our world functions. I have one specific question for the Minister to add to those I have asked already. Can we cut to the chase as regards the argument on wind energy? I would love an open forum, televised for the people, where the facts and figures on what wind energy costs, what is being subsidised and what is the net value of this form of energy as against other types of production can be set out.

I agree with the Minister that we will be importing material for biomass. Electricity prices in England and France are lower than here. Given the development of interconnectors and the way technology is improving, will we have spent billions on some ideal-world solution? In that context, our manufacturing people, who create jobs, are still at a disadvantage because France or England could probably sell us electricity at half the price once they perfect the systems they are developing.