Alex White (Dublin South, Labour) | Oireachtas source

That technology is improving. It will all take time. Everything in the area we are discussing takes time. We need to consider a timeframe not of just a few months, like the political cycle teaches us. We need to consider timeframes of five, ten or 15 years. We talk about offshore wind and other new technologies. We probably will not be here to see that, but we need to lay the groundwork now and make the right decisions to ensure that the people who come after us can bring these developments forward.

The Governor of the Bank of England, Mr. Mark Carney, used the phrase, "the tragedy of horizons", in a piece he wrote recently. Policymakers and even consumers in our own homes only see so far. We all have scarce resources and we need to decide what to spend it on. We do not tend to spend money on something that will give us a benefit in ten years time. If that is scaled up to the level of governments and policymakers, the same problem exists. It is a tragedy of horizon. The members of this committee can see that these are long-terms calls that have to be made.

The Deputy made a comment on wind energy and we might talk about this again next week. Onshore wind energy is proven to be cost effective. It is subsidised; it would not have happened without a subsidy. It has required a subsidy and will in all likelihood require a continuing subsidy. We have to hope that in the medium to long term that we are discussing, it will not require a subsidy, and that the market and technologies will be such that it will be able to be rolled out, enhanced and expanded without subsidy.

The Deputy spoke about making a special case and so on. It is true that we have to make a special case to Europe about our own situation. However, every country, including this one, has to step up here. Every citizen will have to be part of this. While I am not suggesting the Deputy is saying this, there is no use in any of us claiming that something is not realistic. There will always be ten or 15 reasons for not doing something, but very often the alternative is worse.

If we decide to embrace decarbonisation, there are ways of implementing and delivering that over a period of ten, 15 or 20 years out to 2030 and ultimately 2050. The G7 is suggesting a completely decarbonised world by the end of the century. We can play our part in that now. I do not believe it is unrealistic for politicians to talk about that kind of a long term. People look back and ask what we did when we had an opportunity to make those changes. That is the responsibility we hold.

We have assessed the opportunities for hydroelectricity. We do not see potential for large-scale hydroelectricity in this country. It has been well assessed and well studied. Small projects might work. In 1927 when the plant in Ardnacrusha was constructed, that project accounted for in excess of 90% of our electricity-generation requirement. Now it is definitely in single figures. I am advised that it is 1%. Obviously, we live in a different world from the world of the 1920s.

Hydroelectricity was an incredible project then. It is a renewable energy. It was a fantastic, far-sighted project. However, we do not believe we have the potential for similar type large scale projects in this country in the period ahead.

I made a careful note of the Deputy's point about county councils.

The Acting Chairman made a point about the difficulties attendant on trying to bring all the member states together, given their different histories, requirements and pressures. He is correct. However, it important to remember, and Deputy Colreavy raised this with me previously, that the decisions on fuel mix remain member state competencies and there is no proposal to change that. Fuel mix sovereignty will remain, even in the context of energy union. Of course there are big challenges in trying to bring together all of the member states across the Union given their different requirements.

The Deputy is correct that where there are very large operators there is a risk of them crowding out smaller operators and crowding out the opportunities there might be in countries such as Ireland. I agree with the Deputy that it is a real risk. We are very conscious of that in these discussions.