Mr. Paul Carroll:

Correct. In that regard, there has been an increased allocation of special needs assistants, SNAs, and teachers for schools this year. A small number of those positions have been advertised. The Senator is right to say that unions will ensure there is no displacement, as will the Department. If a school has a job for a teacher or SNA, it should advertise for that job and recruit a teacher or an SNA. In the Senator's example, the school did not have the money and had reached its allocation. Is there an opportunity for someone to do something in the school that represents a valuable contribution to school life or pupils as well as a valuable work experience opportunity for that person? This is what is happening. A school advertised for a caretaker or a cleaner and someone, for reasons best known to himself or herself, found it to be a worthwhile opportunity. I find it difficult to see what is wrong with that. The person has not displaced a cleaner because, in such instances, we contact the school, ask whether it had a caretaker last year and, if so, ensure that it advertises for and recruits a caretaker this year.

Schemes of this nature run two risks, the first of which is displacement - namely, that there is a job but the body will not offer it and will instead offer an internship. The second is dead weight - that is, if the scheme did not exist, the person would none the less have progressed on to something. In my opening address, I tried to explain the kinds of activity that we are engaged in to minimise these risks. Indecon, which carried out the survey, found the level of displacement to be 3%. We are considering the way in which Indecon calculated that figure. During the course of the survey last year, it asked employers what they would otherwise have done. As part of the forthcoming survey, there will be a detailed analysis of this figure and a comparison with what is happening in the sector generally. We hope to have a more robust indication.

It is also fair to say that, when the scheme was introduced, the country was in bad shape. The live register was at 460,000 people and the thinking at the time was that it would hit 500,000. The country has turned itself around and there has been a dramatic improvement in recent years. In other countries, there is usually a lag after a recession and it takes a number of years of economic growth before there is an increase in employment. Remarkably, this has not been the case in Ireland. Our economy has been jobs-led. I contend that schemes such as JobBridge and JobsPlus have made a contribution to that. No jobs were being offered and the country was on its knees. Either we decide not to do anything about that, remain idle and wait for the economy to turn around, or we determine whether we can do anything to help businesses that are struggling and do not have the capital to recruit and whether we can provide opportunities to keep people attached to the labour market, be they new entrants, new university graduates who need experience or people who have left school. Are they to sit idly for four years and wait for the economy to pick up?

The Senator gave an example of someone who wanted to change jobs. JobBridge is a successful vehicle in that regard. Having worked as a construction worker, someone might realise that the times are a-changing and he or she cannot get another job in that space, so JobBridge is an opportunity to get experience doing something else. It is also an incentive for employers to recruit that person. This is what the scheme is about.

As the economy improves, the risk of displacement will undoubtedly increase. Some employers have more money in their pockets, but the numbers on JobBridge are already decreasing. During the course of the evaluation, we will examine why that is happening. I hate anecdote and criticise others for using it, which is why we have commissioned an external evaluation, but some of the anecdotal information that I am receiving is that companies are having to offer jobs in order to get or keep people. A company might have invested in an intern for four months, but if a job is available elsewhere, he or she might go for it.

Regarding mentoring, the reality of a scheme of this nature is that there must be no displacement, even in the public sector. One must not be advertising in that space. People claim that there has been wholesale abuse of the scheme and there are rolling internships. One cannot advertise the same role again; what one advertises must be different. If committee members or members of the public have concerns in this respect, they should notify me. There is a "Contact Us" facility on www.jobsireland.ie. If there is an allegation of abuse of the scheme or a participant, I would love to hear of it and investigate.

Mentoring will relate to the experience of the intern and the position that is available. Depending on the nature of the work experience opportunity and the skill set of the intern, some jobs may require a great deal of mentoring while others may not. In the latter, it might be a case of Mr. Corcoran, for example, being shown what to do and, if he has a problem thereafter, someone is there to help. Honestly, that-----