Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú:

I do not believe that the Department or, indeed, the HEA, should second-guess agencies.

In relation to the matter of detail, I think we are at a very important stage. I have listened to what the Chairman said. We are concerned about the activities of institutions and agencies. We have endeavoured to put in place much more effective frameworks. We had frameworks in place and we have been seeking to improve them. Within the Department, we are seeking to bring together the three groups we have - namely, the ETBs, the HEIs, with the HEA, and the national agencies - and to look at best practice. The big way we can bring about change is in the context of the culture within the institutions. This is reflected in the work the HEA is doing in organising briefing seminars on procurement and other issues for the finance officers and other people in the institutions entitled to do it. Improved behaviour will not come about by centralised control, it come about through cultural change and an element of increased regulation and that is what we are seeking to put in place. It is about having an improved framework in place; not seeking to control every activity. That is the balance that we have to take because neither the Department nor, indeed, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform can seek to engage in that level of detail with each institution so we have new early warning mechanisms and improved liaison with the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The list the committee has seen this morning reflects exactly what we do in the Department, the exception being that we are trying to get that list earlier, where there have been breakdowns, in order that we can intervene. The HEA is following up on every matter with the higher education institution to which the Comptroller and Auditor General's report refers. The HEA has quarterly meetings with the Comptroller and Auditor General so that if issues are emerging, it will hear about them. There are different ways of proceeding but having departmental or HEA approval for every action of an institution is not one of them. I just do not think that will work.