Mr. Alan Dukes:

Well, on the wind-down, first of all, Chairman, the target was to wind it down over ten years by 2020. We had actually concluded by the winter of 2012 that we could do the wind-down by 2018. In fact, Mike Aynsley said to me early in December, I think, of 2012 that he thought we could do the wind-down by 2016, and we actually didn't get time to discuss that properly before the liquidation happened.

My understanding of the motivation for the liquidation at that point was that the State wished to avoid the necessity to pay a further €3 point odd billion every year at the beginning of March to fund its obligations under the promissory note, and that by winding down ... by liquidating Anglo the State believed it had the opportunity to replace the promissory note by cheaper money, basically through other means, and that that would allow ... a requirement of doing that was the liquidation of Anglo-----