Mr. John Gormley:

Well, the thing that I would have put in, Deputy ... Senator, rather, was the thing that disappointed me about the Department. And let me say that many of the officials in the Department did Trojan work. They worked around the clock, including Mr. Cardiff, who was unfairly maligned, in my view. But the Department calls the shots and they often, I suppose, had a practice which was like, you know, "Do as I say, not as I do". And in terms of the way that they approached Cabinet meetings, I felt that they would produce memos, as I said, at the last minute, not giving us enough time to scrutinise those memos, not having done the necessary homework themselves, whereas I was running a Department, which was a huge Department, and if I had to put something through Cabinet, every single line had to be accounted for. And that's the ... that's the problem that I encountered.