Mr. Fergus Murphy:

Yes. In fairness, Senator, I think that the EBS culture and the board that I joined ... the base case was they wanted to preserve mutuality and I think that was a virtuous objective and I think there was strong alignment in the board in relation to that. Again, they knew that they had a lot of problems. Again, they knew that the markets were beginning to turn. They had looked to see could they do this composite deal with Rabobank where, again, you're marrying the continental European member-based organisation called a co-operative with the Irish or UK member-based organisation being a mutual. And that, therefore, they wanted to conserve a mutual, excuse me, or a mutual-like organisation in Ireland and that's where the genesis of the discussions with Rabobank in 2003 were coming from. I should say for full ... for full transparency, I would have been leading those discussions from the Rabobank side at that time.