Dr. Michael Somers:

Well, it depends how far back you want to go. I suppose I was always a bit contentious in the Department of Finance. I'd different ideas about how things might be done. And it went back ... I was a young fella in the Department of Finance. There was the trade unions and the staff associations wanted to set up a widows' and children's pension fund, and the Secretary of the Department, Dr. Whitaker at the time, and Mr. Haughey, who was the Minister, were all in favour of this. The Department was opposed to it. And I got ... I was working in the pension sector at the time, and I got involved in it, and I thought it was a good idea. And I ended up - I was 26 or something - I ended up as the main negotiator in this thing and cut a deal, and I got to know Mr. Haughey quite well at that stage, and would have discussed the terms of the deal with him, and would have agreed terms with him, which the Department did not necessarily approve of. But, I mean, we got the deal done, it's still there, by and large, for the whole public sector.

Now, at the end of it Dr. Whitaker was going down as Governor of the Central Bank, and he brought me down for two years, so I escaped the wrath of the place for two years and then I went back again. And I suppose I ... well, I had my own ideas about how things should be run. Then I left, and I became Secretary of the Department of Defence and then, when I was brought back there was fury over it and I was, kind of, parachuted in and ... to try and do something about the debt. And it did not go down well. And then we set up the NTMA and there was fury over that, and ... I mean, there was an allegation made, I think before this committee, that somehow or other I had, when I set up the NTMA, I denuded-----