Mr. Brendan McDonagh:

Well, I saw what Mr. Cardiff said but Mr. Cardiff, in his role, could've been ... I think he said he was exploring it on a personal level, right. And if he was exploring it on a personal level, he wasn't saying that to me or, I don't believe, to any of my colleagues in the NTMA. What I was aware of - and the documentation point towards it - is that there was talk about the NTMA going out borrowing maybe potentially up to €20 billion and lending it back to the banks as a secure ... as a secured lender. And my concern would be that if the banks couldn't pay you back that €20 billion or if the collateral you took wasn't worth €20 billion and you had a hole in it, then that would have to be ... basically the State would be taking the hit and the ... people would see you have a problem. But, that was a €20 billion problem as opposed to a problem which turned out to be €64 billion.