Mr. Brian Cowen:

Okay, Chairman. Well, I've made ... in my comment, I've made the statement that Brian ... Brian Lenihan subsequently told me some time later that he hadn't been in the room when the junior ... when that decision was taken, and I just wanted to have that recorded because he did say it to me. Regarding that, I mean, my ... everyone's recollection is slightly different, I suppose, in terms of what you remember but the question of junior bondholders came up in the context of looking at the Merrill Lynch stuff as well because it was ... they seemed to suggest that it should be included, talked about the possibility of cross-collateral, cross-default etc. There was also the view that the number of ... the pool of investors for Irish bonds is relatively small compared to other large countries and therefore, some of them may be in the category of subordinated and senior bondholders. But I took the ... I take the point that it was, in the normal ... if it was normal conditions, you wouldn't be considering including even dated subordinated bondholders. Undated subordinated bondholders were left out of the equation. The fact that I remember, as I say, specifically a conversation that I had with the Central Bank Governor about it where he mentioned that they were a very small part of the overall amount that was being considered, about 3%. This question of giving clarity to the market the following day was given a very high premium. Even when we had sort of done the deposit guarantee scheme there was queries coming in about ... there was ... surprisingly since it looked like a very simple arrangement. The amount of queries that people have on these things would surprise you sometimes but ... so they were saying that people ... in the interests of clarity, in the interest of total understanding by everyone where we stood that we should include them, taking all things into account. And what I would emphasis is the volatility in the market was such that it was felt you shouldn't restrict market access for Irish banks from any source, even one that would normally not be included in a guarantee in normal circumstances.