Mr. Brian Cowen:

Well, I didn't know who was outside the door. What I'm saying to you is that, when Mr. ... when the gentlemen was ... came to the Department of the Taoiseach at 9.30 p.m., he was in an outside room. He had been asked to be there, he was phoned or whatever or e-mailed or texted by Mr. Cardiff. I hadn't asked for, "Get me the NTMA." The official had got him, he knew the other two gentlemen were away. But he was articulating, you know, there wasn't a question that the NTMA position wasn't known in the room. It was.