Mr. Kevin Cardiff:

Ah no, look. It wasn't at that stage envisaging somebody wouldn't be paid that would be paid under the guarantee. It was saying, let's grab control of this entity. Let's get in there ourselves and run it ourselves. Let's have the State run it and run it with the view to minimising whatever damage it would do and also run it with a view to reducing its scale of business because it didn't seem to have a set of customers who were going make ... keep it profitable over time. And that was the thing.

And, having done that, we could have, as we did in January 2009, assess whether and to what extent it was possible to share losses with the subordinated bondholders. And I don't think at that stage that I had ever thought we would get to the point where we would be dealing with the senior bondholders but that could have been dealt with under a nationalised system.