Mr. Kevin Cardiff:

Yes, I can tell you that with great ... in great detail, but it's probably not ... probably would waste too much of your time. If you just take senior level people, forget ... because the ... the Central Bank is part of the European system of central banks so they're in contact with them, probably, daily. But at a senior level, if you remember since Mr. Hurley was ill, Mr. Grimes was the Governor - not, you know ... he ... in legal terms he had become the Governor for the period of the illness, I suspect ... I suspect that's how it works out legally, so he would have been the principal contact at senior level until the deputy came ... until the Governor came back. And he was at meetings, for example, on the 17th or thereabouts, out in Frankfurt - the regular monthly meetings, I suspect. There's a dinner beforehand and the reason I know the night before they have an informal working dinner, I think so he was in touch with them then. And the reason I know this is because some of the working teams were discussing this and were saying, "We'd better get a message to Tony to say, you know, we need to press on the collateral issue", and the message back from Tony ... so you have the meeting ... and the message back was, "They're not going anywhere on the collateral issue." So there was that discussion around about the 17th.

Now, I also have a fairly specific note which, I think, is in my statement somewhere at the back and it says ... it's headed, "JH after telecon with ECB", so John Hurley, after a teleconference with the ECB. I think I said it's the 28th, it was either the 28th or early on the 29th. It's location in my jotter suggests the 28th but maybe it was early on the 29th. In any event it should be easy to find out when the teleconference took place, and that has discussion of a few issues, the two big issues for Ireland. Issue No. 1, Depfa, Irish-based bank going bust. The same reasons that different ... entirely different type of bank but the same reasons a lot of banks were going bust. Actually, most of their lending was to the public sector around Europe, not that risky, but most of their borrowing was very short ... not most, but a lot of their borrowing was very short term so they weren't able to fund it, they were just running out of cash. Much more the classic liquidity thing than the other banks, the Irish banks, turned out to be. But that was a big issue and, as I recall it, John Hurley was saying, "Hold up now, lads, we've enough troubles without taking on this subsidiary of a German bank", although I suspect he was asked explicitly and he said "No, we're not going there thank you very much. That's your German problem." At the same day he had a conversation ... at the same time there is a note, in my notes, that he had a conversation with Mr. Trichet, and it's a very short note-----