Mr. Kevin Cardiff:

But certainly in September. Then in ... a day or two later I ... a day or two after the time I think that conversation probably happened, I spoke ... I had the conversation I talked to you about with ... with Michael Somers, but he wasn't advocating a guarantee or anything like it. He was ... he was, you know, just being consulted.

I think then afterwards that my notes would substantiate a ... a suggestion from Gillian Bowler, chairman of Irish Life and Permanent, in a meeting. And my notes also suggest a discussion about it and my recollection is, though it is only a recollection ... a positive suggestion from Brian Goggin around about the 25th or 26th to Dave Doyle who was then the Secretary General. Now my note isn't comprehensive, my note says, you know, "Discussion with Mr. Goggin, not have a bank guarantee." My recollection is he meant ... he was saying, "Can we not have a bank guarantee?", but ... but ... theoretically, he could have said, "Never, let's not have a bank guarantee", but anyway ... that ... that ... but ... but my recollection is that at that point Bank of Ireland was sort of coming around to it. But all of these were conversations; you wouldn't read too much into them. These were ... of their nature, they had to be a little bit exploratory so I'm not saying that, you know, anyone was nailing their colours to a mast at any of these points.