Mr. Kevin Cardiff:

About 11 or 12 September. I said to Dr. Somers, "Look, people, people are talking about this option; what's your view?" And got, the next day, just an informal view back that, well, it might have an adverse ... it might look bad in the market kind of thing, but, that's not to say you mightn't consider it in certain circumstances. So there was that, then ... from then on the NTMA was our, as the Department of Finance, our closest advisers, very welcome advisers, and there were detailed discussions on almost every option. So, yes, as the idea of the broad guarantee developed, they were involved. Dr. Somers was not only talking to me, he was talking to Mr. Doyle, I think, he was talking to Mr. Hurley, I know, because I have a note of it, so I can't imagine that there was any possible way in which he didn't know that this was one of the options. And, indeed, it was discussed at meetings he was at on 18 September, and again later, I think, I'm pretty sure, and he knew that his staff were attending meetings about these issues also. For example, I have a note somewhere that says, you know, "Meeting such-and-such a date, would have been 25 or 26 September, Dr. Somers has decided to send Mr. McDonagh." So they became our principal banking advisers in September, and they were engaged in all of the discussions. I mean, there might have been a moment when Brendan wasn't there or John wasn't there when I was there, but we were talking all the time; it was ... it was an intimate, almost, relationship.