Ms Christina Zampas:

I will go through them as they were raised. I will not repeat what Mr. O'Gorman stated, but I want to say something about the Savita situation and the case of Lupe, who is mentioned in our report.

She was in a very similar situation. She had a wanted pregnancy and she was miscarrying. She went to the hospital for a scan which indicated that there was no foetal heartbeat but they told her to come back the following week just to make sure. She ended up carrying a dead foetus for two months. At one point she realised that she could get an infection and she could be Savita. She went back to Spain, her home country, and doctors there could not believe that she had not been given an abortion. Dr. Mahony referred to how it does not make clinical sense to equate the constitutional protection of the unborn with the right to life of the pregnant woman. To repeat what Mr. O'Gorman has said, the distinction between health and life is not a distinction for the law to make. It is a distinction to be made in a clinical setting by a pregnant woman, in consultation with her doctor.

Severe foetal impairment is a very difficult issue. The easy answer is that human rights bodies recognise that the human rights implications of denying women who have had pregnancies which are severe could be that women will seek abortions anyway, but I think it is much more difficult than that. We have a story of a woman who wanted to be called Laoise's mother. She had a very wanted pregnancy. She and her husband were very happy about it. The pregnancy was diagnosed with a severe foetal impairment. Her decision to terminate her pregnancy was not an easy one. When we were drafting the report, it was very difficult for her to include it in the report. Finally she agreed and she came out and thought it was very important. She took part in a recent meeting with stakeholders where she said she was happy it was in the report. It is not up to Amnesty to make the call on what is severe or not. We are not a medical organisation. We would never want to see a list of what is severe. It is a clinical decision to be made between a patient and her doctor. These are judgments to be made in a clinical setting. We are a human rights organisation. We are not going to list the grounds on which women can have abortions for severe foetal impairment, but we will follow international human rights standards.

Deputy Daly referred to other countries in Europe. Malta is the only other country in the EU that has a stricter law than Ireland. In the 47 Council of Europe member states, the only other countries that have stricter laws are the micro states of Andorra and San Marino. Malta, Andorra and San Marino have a total ban on abortion. In regard to pregnant women having a qualified right and how the eighth amendment works, our report describes how pregnant women in non-abortion related settings are being treated in maternal health care settings, so it is not just related to abortion. That could be the topic of a whole other report. There is one story that stands out, to which we wished to dedicate more time in terms of the report, but we want to make it clear that the eighth amendment impacts on all pregnant women, not just those seeking abortion.

In regard to the criminalising of abortion, we follow human rights standards. Human rights bodies have called for the decriminalisation of abortion in all circumstances, to take it out of the criminal code and not punish women and doctors. We know what happens when there is a criminal law governing abortion. It stops women from seeking care, even post-abortion care, it hinders providers from making decisions that are in the best interests of their patients and it reinforces a stigma and treats women as outcasts. That is why we also call for decriminalisation, and we believe there are other ways to regulate. There are professional sanctions which can be imposed on doctors; their licences can be removed, etc. Some of the doctors to whom we spoke were concerned about the criminalising of abortion hovering over them, but they also spoke about professional sanction, and to some that is almost worse: to have their licence taken away or to be ostracised by their peers in the medical community.

Deputy Conway asked about how illegal abortions happen in Ireland. This is dealt with towards the end of our report. Women who cannot travel, usually the most vulnerable women and asylum seekers, spoke to us about how they considered suicide. One woman spoke about how she calculated throwing herself in front of a truck or jumping off a bridge. It appears that women are taking the medical abortion pills here. Sandra's story, which is on page 94 of the report, tells how she procured the pills online. We want to be clear that medical abortion is very safe. The WHO has it on the essential medicines list for abortion. It is extremely safe and it is the safest methods of illegal abortions, safer than any other method. Around the world, especially in countries where women cannot travel and where abortion is prohibited or extremely restricted, like in Latin America, taking the pills have actually saved women's lives and have reduced maternal mortality. However, that is not an answer to changing the laws. The pills should be taken with medical supervision but we think that is probably one of the ways in which women are having illegal abortions here.

Reference was made to gestational limits. Amnesty's policy is that states could put reasonable limits on abortion and that could be the licensing of doctors, regulating of facilities that provide abortions, and gestational limits. Most countries have gestational limits. No country in Europe allows abortion on request to the end of pregnancy. It allows abortion until end of pregnancy when women's lives or health is in danger. Late term abortions do not happen because a woman makes a conscious choice to delay having the abortion. There are reasons they happen late. In the US less than 1% of abortions are late term abortions, but we see those who oppose abortion use this as a way to discuss the issue. They have co-opted the language of "partial-birth abortion" etc. Viability would be a reasonable gestational limit so we support those limits. Amnesty believes the best way to protect pre-natal life is to provide maternal health care services. In Ireland, the best way to protect pregnant women and those seeking abortions would be to repeal the eighth amendment.