Mr. Gerry Light:

Perhaps Mr. John King can answer the question about the VAT rate specific to his sector. The attitude to the VAT rate is typical and we express this view in our submission. It is not true of every employer but it certainly seems that many of them want to have it every way. It raises the question of why we needed a statutory minimum wage and why, now, we are having a worthwhile discussion around the living wage. It is necessary because swathes of workers cannot properly bargain within their industry or sector. If an employer group within a particular sector is given advantageous or favourable treatment, such as by way of a reduced VAT rate, there has to be a dividend for everybody, not just for some. Employers cannot continually and robustly argue against meaningful collective negotiating mechanisms at the same time as arguing against the need for a statutory minimum wage or a living wage. Do they ever ask themselves why we need such things? They argue against every measure which is socially and morally progressive. Ultimately, it leads back to those arguments put forward at the beginning of the meeting. One of the consequential effects of those arguments is to illustrate the need for a living wage and a minimum wage in the first place.