Mr. Gerry Light:

I will break down the question into three component parts. The Deputy referred to the common denominator in respect of employers who are willing to deal with trade unions and do the right thing by their employees. The common denominator is that they agree to sit down with the trade union and, in doing so, they do the responsible and morally correct thing by their employees. Long before any collective bargaining legislation has to be placed on the Statute Book, they agree to be seen to do the right thing by coming to the table willingly and openly. There is no doubt that without this type of attitude and approach, not much headway will be made in dealing with the issues of low paid workers.

On the key measures, the trade unions believe the awards we have achieved have been understated. Over the past two years, some €30 million has gone back into the economy and not only directly benefited low paid workers and their dependants, but delivered the many other benefits for the economy highlighted by my colleagues. This is a crucial issue.

We must be careful, in the more general and open debate that is taking place on decency thresholds, whether it is the statutory minimum wage or a living wage, to apply the following simple mathematical formula: the hourly rate multiplied by weekly hours equals the wage. We can become much too narrowly focused and claim an increase of 20 or 30 cent in this or that rate is great but the reality encountered by low paid workers in the workplace is that employers can completely mitigate the benefit of any increase with the stroke of a pen. The simple way to do this is by reducing hours of employment or in some cases eliminating them. The key element in any debate is to place this formula on the table and examine the issue in a holistic fashion. We must not rely excessively on increases in rates. While such increases are important, we must look beyond them at the various component parts.

While I do not propose to refer to a specific employer by name, everyone present will know which company I am talking about. What we have to do to bring about engagement-----