John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour) | Oireachtas source

Ms Callan read out figures for those on the minimum wage but the figures from a previous speaker were that in 2011 those on the minimum wage stood at 10.8% and that had increased in 2014 to 15%. Someone’s figures are wrong. I am not saying whether they are Ms Callan’s or the previous speaker’s but there is a discrepancy there.

I accept there are businesses which are genuinely struggling at the moment and there are people who own those businesses who perhaps are not even receiving a wage. I want to park that, however, to talk about the people who are successful and have a measured profitability. Given that the workers in those businesses helped achieve that profitability for those companies, what is wrong with their getting a dividend through a better wage? In my four years on this committee I have never experienced such an engagement. This is quite an unusual conversation. I am very disturbed to think we should pay people what they are worth. It is like talking about cattle. I am very upset by the fact that somebody could speak like that. We are talking about people.

If a company is not viable and cannot pay the minimum wage to some people and does not believe that should exist, there is a question about whether that company should be in business. Unless somebody has a massive social conscience and sense of social responsibility and has set up a business as a social enterprise, it is my understanding that businesses do not employ people for the sake of it. If something can be made at less expense and the profit could be slightly larger, that would be the case. Would that not be the case in most businesses?