Denis Landy (Labour) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the representatives of the three associations. In particular, I thank the Chairman for inviting the council associations before the joint committee on foot of a proposal from Senator Keane and me. It is very important that these associations appear before the committee in respect of any pre-legislative scrutiny pertaining to legislation dealing with local government. As this Bill is in that realm, I welcome them to the meeting. I must also get my head around the new title, namely, the County and City Management Association, as opposed to County and City Managers Association, because of the change in respect of the chief executive officers. I also welcome the association to the meeting.

I have listened closely and intently and while I will not go back over what already has been said, I will make a few points. I agree completely with the flexibility concept with regard to the 10% social and affordable provision but the difficulty is how does one put that into legislation. What happened previously was that the default position was flexibility. Consequently, members have seen what happened in the past where there was a movement from houses being provided to a position in which money was paid instead and the entire concept of social housing was lost. It is a challenge for the Minister in the first instance to include this in the Bill and then for members to respond to it. However, it is important to be cognisant of the points that were made regarding flexibility as one size does not fit all. I come from a small rural town - I acknowledge some of the councillors present come from major urban areas - and one must look at both contexts and some flexibility must be built in. Perhaps a default position should be considered in which the legislation sets out a particular position but that there could be a default from that for which local authorities could apply on a case-by-case basis. There may be some scope in this respect.

I have a question for the witnesses from the County and City Management Association. In their submission, they made a comment regarding the potential delays in collecting the levy. How do they think that process could be speeded up? I raised the issue of the 10% and the ten units with previous associations. I reiterate that I come from rural Ireland where even now, some of the limited developments are of seven and eight houses. As 10% of seven housing units is no house or unit at all, this issue must be examined, flexibility must be considered in that context and members must be forceful with the Minister on this point.

In his submission, Councillor McNally referred to approved housing bodies, which also are known as voluntary housing associations. He called for their regulation, which is something for which I have called since entering the Seanad. There are hundreds of voluntary housing associations and the word "voluntary" with regard to housing associations is a misnomer, because nothing is voluntary. The funding for such associations is provided in the main by the Department. I acknowledge that of late, they have been obliged to come up with some money themselves but up to then, it was provided by the Department. The counsellor might expand on the benefit of regulation with regard to how the local authorities do their business. In addition, I believe Councillor Guckian referred to the levies being used at local town level. I seek her opinion in this regard but the difficulty is that since last year, a new local government system has been in place and whereas previously, there were distinct town council areas, in some cases there now are municipal districts encompassing a number of towns. If this is a reserved function, will it fall to the elected members of the municipal district to decide where the money is to be spent within that municipal district or will it stay in the town in which it has been collected? This is a major issue because as the witnesses are all aware, geography plays a massive role in how the municipal districts now are configured. Off the top of my head, I can name four or five places in this context. For example, I note Councillor Geoghegan is smiling at me, if the money was collected in Dungarvan, it could end up being spent in Lismore. I seek the witnesses' views on how that can be tightened up.

The final issue on which I wish to make a point is whether this provision would apply to towns with a population of 3,000, as was mentioned, or to towns of 5,000. The town of Templemore in my native county has a population of less than 3,000 and has a development plan. On the enactment of this Bill, does one run the clock on the current development plans and the lands that were zoned therein or does one start afresh from the time the Bill is passed?

That is another imponderable to which I do not have the answer. Perhaps Mr. Sheahan might like to comment, given that he has spoken about the issue already.