Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour) | Oireachtas source

My point is that the same entity cannot be "the lobbied" and "the lobbying".

Communications between members of the same Department are exempt because it is understood that if a principal officer is talking to an assistant secretary, that is not lobbying. I am providing for where an external person is designated, but it is not automatic that every semi-State body will be designated for this purpose. That is something we will debate. As can be seen, AIB is not on the list of bodies to be designated under section 6. In the same vein, many communications on public policy, reviews and so on between agencies of a Department and that Department would be deemed to be normal, as if they were between civil servants within a Department. This is not lobbying.

On the issue of transparency, it is captured by more than lobbying only. We must have a narrow focus in the Bill on what constitutes "lobbying". It is something that sets out to change public policy, whereas there are other mechanisms such as FOI legislation and the open data initiative I have described through which general information should be in the public domain. I go some of the way with the Deputy, but AIB is a bad example to use because it is an anomaly that we own 99% of a bank that is not a semi-State company in the normal sense of the word. It is Government policy that this will not remain the position. The Deputy is right; I would have a different view if AIB was lobbying on banking policy that had uniform application rather than communicating with the shareholder, which is different. I will reflect further on the issue to ensure the point the Deputy has made is captured. If it is normal communication between the bank and its prime shareholder, it cannot be regarded as lobbying.

On AIB being in a position to be exempt under the Bill in terms of lobbying on general banking issues, that is not the case because it is not a designated body. Even if it was nominated as a designated body, it should not be exempt in the example given by the Deputy. I have no intention of including it as a designated body.