Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour) | Oireachtas source

Section 1(g). Apologies; it is section 6(1)(g).

Section 6(1)(g) allows the definition of the lobbied to be extended, which I intend to do that but, again, on the basis of experience. The first iteration of this will be secretaries general of the Departments, assistant secretaries general, principal officers, chief executive officers of local authorities, chief executives of companies and so on. Others will be included later.

I will address the issue relating to local authorities when we come to deal with an amendment on that issue in the name of Deputy Mary Lou McDonald. As I said, the list is not fixed. We need to first bed down the system and explain to people what is expected of them. If people are going to be in breach of the law we had better give them a chance to understand what exactly is expected of them in this regard. I want to do this in a way that does not bring the whole system into disrepute before it starts.

In regard to many other categories which Deputies are seeking by way of a number of amendments to have included, some, like the Central Bank, cannot be included because as Deputies will be aware it is part of the Eurogroup system and we would require the authority of the European Central Bank to do this. In regard to the others, there are real practical difficulties. Let us bed down the first tranche of people, who are the real power brokers in the land, including Ministers and staff of the Departments and so on. I will provide Deputies with a comprehensive list of the first people to be captured by this measure.

Under section 6, we will over time migrate it to other categories. I do not expect Deputy Fleming's list is an exhaustive list. There will be others we want to include in this over time. This legislation is ground breaking a new space. It was regarded as a model Bill by the open government partnership. It is not a finished a product, no more than, say, the Freedom of Information or the protected disclosures legislation. When this Bill becomes an Act of the Oireachtas it will not be the final word on this issue. All the issues covered by it will have to be refined to address new circumstances.

Deputy McDonald asked the reason the threshold is set at ten full-time employees. There is no golden rule about this. What will apply is what is practical. For example, if a person in Wexford who runs a plumbing business and has two employees wishes to lobby Brendan Howlin about water charges or anything else, is that something he should register? I want people to be able to express themselves without inhibition. Larger companies are in a position to do this in a more structured way than the small employer who is not far removed from the individual citizen. There is not a lot of difference between the local plumber, who happens to employ two apprentices or an assistant, making his views known and him as John citizen making known his views, which he should be entitled to do without hindrance. In regard to whether the threshold could be eight rather than ten employees, the answer is yes but one has to make a determination in this regard. We have made the modification in relation to the categories of people who are professionally lobbying, even if a small group of people at the core if they represent a cohort of other people. For example, if a plumbers' advocacy group comprising four employees at the top represented a big cohort of people it would be captured.

In regard to turnover, one could make things more complicated but I have tried to make this as simple as possible. The current threshold for audit is in excess of €8 million. A €5 million turnover company would be audit exempt under the Companies Act. Whether we should have a threshold level that drifts into a particular turnover at a particular point in time in the context of whether people would or would not be captured, the provision as drafted seeks to provide as much certainty as possible. I ask that Deputies opposite give these particular proposals fair wind until we bed them down. If we need to tweak them in 12 months time we will do so.