Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour) | Oireachtas source

I will first say a few general words to capture the themes that have been expressed by both Deputies.  This is a new area of operation to register and capture the lobbying of power - the lobbying of Government.  Probably more preparatory work went into this legislation than into the legislation on freedom of information, the protection of whistleblowers and all other such legislation, although a huge amount of consultation went into all of that.  It is a delicate balance in terms of how to achieve a very robust, open democracy where everybody can lobby.  Everybody should be able to have his or her point of view heard, but the issue is how to stop lobbying by the well connected, which has an impact over the heads of ordinary people.  In balance, that is what we are trying to do.  I was asked a year ago to speak on this subject at the Open Government Partnership in London because the draft legislation we had published was a model that people were examining.  I had many discussions about trying to get that balance right.  

Unlike Deputy Fleming, I do not think we will get it perfectly right in the first iteration of this.  There will be a learning process. All I have learned from other countries that have tried to do it is that they need to tweak it and change it to suit their own domestic circumstances.  I will deal with the Deputies' specific amendments. I will be broadening the scope of this mechanism once we have an annual review of it in a year's time to see how we can broaden the definitions, including the definition of the lobbied, and to see how the lobbyists are captured and whether there is anybody who needs to be captured in a better way.  I totally disagree with the notion that is some sort of fig leaf, which I know is good for a sound bite.  This is the most honest attempt I can make.  A very hard-working team of people have been involved in this from a public discussion forum that invited submissions on the holding a seminar for all interested bodies.  Some people were frightened that they would be excluded from expressing a legitimate point of view or that there would be a disincentive for them to argue their case with the Government, but the reverse is the case: we we want to encourage and facilitate lobbying in a transparent and open way and not have any impediment to that.  Getting that balance is what I have tried to do in this Bill.

To deal with some specific points, on amendment No. 7 relating to the role of Ministers in terms of State boards, the Government this morning approved the guidelines, after considerable consultation, on the appointment of State boards.  They are quite ground-breaking.  They will bring about a sea change in the way public appointments are made.  I will not enter into cheap politics and say that it has been ever thus.  If one looks through the list of people who have been appointed by all parties represented here, including Deputy McDonald's when account is taken of the North-South bodies in terms of political affiliation, it is only natural that we appoint people who we know can do the job as opposed to taking a chance on people who on paper may have a great CV but whose ability to do the job, in practical terms, we do not know.  Having the robust, independent mechanism that we have now established will be one of the most important things we have done as a Government in terms of the reform agenda that I want to see in place.  As to whether it will it be the be all and end all, no, it will not. It will revisited again and there will be a review of it in a year's time.  I cannot remember if a year or 18 months was the timescale we settled on for a review of the State boards appointments mechanism.  I had a long discussion with the Public Appointments Service, PAS, on this, and I know it is up to the job.

I want to say something more profound to Deputy Fleming.  I want everybody who is interested to apply.  I do not want anybody who would come up to me and say he or she would be a great person to do the job to be in any way inhibited in doing that.  I would tell them to go through the PAS system, because that is the new system.  This it is the only route to a State board appointment, having regard to the legislation that governs some bodies, including the North-South bodies, and it will be by a formal Government decision.  With regard to people who express a view to a Minister, to the Deputy as an opposition Member, or to anybody, that they would love to serve on a board and have a great set of skills or that they have retired from their jobs and want to serve in some way, I do not accept that one cannot tell them to look up stateboards.ieand check the criteria for each of the State boards.  I would welcome that sort of lobbying.  It is a significant break from what has happened in the past and, for that reason, I do not propose to accept amendment No. 7.  

Amendment No. 8 deals with the designation of the lobbied.  I would point out that under section 1(g), categories of persons other than public servants can be designated as the lobbied.