Mr. Michael Hickey:

This relates to Senator Bradford's question. He could not have summed it up any better. He should be sitting here instead of me because he has it to a "t". HRI registers and promotes horse racing. Its first intention was to do the same with point-to-points, but now it is specifically itemised in the legislation that HRI does not want to do that, except for point-to-point steeplechases, entries, etc.

It is leaving all of that part of it to us. Its original intention was to take over all of that area but it then became evident that given the size of the organisation and its being spread throughout every parish in Ireland, a level of co-operation between the people involved in the voluntary organisations and those who help them to run it would be required. It no longer wants to get involved in the entries or promotion of the point-to-points as it does in respect of other racing. That is being left to us. The only aspect it is taking away is the hunter certificates, which provide revenue for us. The revenue we generate from that goes back into point-to-point races. I would like to outline briefly to the committee how we spend that money.

In the last year we provided mobile medical units for point-to-point races. It is a type of on-site treatment room. There are three such units in operation in Ireland. We supply and pay for these units, often with the assistance of a sponsor. We also supply the third ambulance at point-to-points. This is paid for from funds we receive from hunter certificate registrations. We also supply medical bags for the doctors, who are trained in the treatment of trauma in relation to point-to-points. We do a lot in respect of which we do not seek funding from HRI. This is possible only because we can register the hunter certificates.

Senator Bradford asked by whom this proposal was made. As I stated in my earlier remarks, it was not mentioned by Indecon. The question that arises then is where did it come from. It came from HRI. I do not know why it wants to interfere in this area. I think its purpose may have to do with streamlining, with it taking the money. As I said in my opening statement, the property rights belong to the national hunt committee. The intent is to give us back the money. However, I do not know if that will happen. There is no clarity in that regard. Why take the money in the first place? All this does is create an additional function. We provide for registration of the hunter certificates and provide online access for handlers registration. HRI wants to take over responsibility for the point-to-points and then give us back the money. What is the purpose of that? All it does is create another function. There is no streamlining involved.

Show jumping was mentioned. I was raised on a farm. I had a very good father who was a horseman. I rode for Bord na gCapall, which is one of the forerunners of this committee, and first competed internationally for it. I was grateful for that opportunity. I then represented Ireland all over Europe for a few years. Show jumping has come in handy. I then got involved in racing and won some point-to-points. I won some races on the track, where I also trained. I then got involved in breeding and bred Kicking King. That is an indication of the type of people involved in the Turf Club and national hunt committee - running point-to-point races throughout the country and generally giving freely of their time. Some of these people meet outside the Turf Club offices at 9.30 a.m. to travel to Listowel to license a racetrack. They often then travel to Limerick on their way back, for which work they are not paid a penny. There is no fee involved and they pay for their own lunches and petrol.

It is really a voluntary effort and it amounts to far more than just the four people on the racetrack. We have an appeals and referrals committee, about which Mr. Egan can speak in a moment, and there are other committees. It is a voluntary organisation, spreading to the point-to-point activities.

The Deputy asked about point-to-point races, and these are definitely a nursery, not only for horses but also for riders. We have 450 licensed amateur riders and the majority partake for fun. Generally, these people ride their own horses - whether they are young or old - and there are 1,000 registered handlers, 700 of whom are amateurs. These may be farmers from around the country who partake just for the love of the sport. Senator Bradford argued that people who attend point-to-point races may not go to a race meeting. They may not but they could go to a pub in the evening after a point-to-point if a seven-year-old horse being ridden by a son wins a maiden. They might look at this on television and have a great night. That is what point-to-points are about. We do not want to disrupt this process or nationalise it.

We are very appreciative of the money we get from point-to-points. The Turf Club gets €450,000 from Horse Racing Ireland for the integrity side, which is very necessary in today's environment. We sell very valuable horses to people in England and if they arrive but become lame in a week because of a painkilling drug being administered, there would be a question mark over the integrity of our sport. The integrity of point-to-points is just as important as that for racing. It is done on a very low-cost basis, with €450,000 being received to cover 115 fixtures. The racing element gets approximately €450,000 for 350 meetings. We do it with the tightest possible budget.

Some great horses have emerged from the point-to-point sector, including Best Mate, as well as jockeys such as Adrian Maguire. Ruby Walsh may have ridden in one or two point-to-points. It is a great nursery. There are 90 hunt committees around the country and these are the people responsible for having point-to-points where they are today. Ten years ago, ex-point-to-point horses won races on the track in the same season; the number today is over 1,000 in any national hunt season. These horses are aged from five upwards. We ask the committee to consider the heads dealing with point-to-pointing. As Deputy Lawlor and Senator Bradford mentioned, if this is not broken, why try to fix it?

There was mention of the handler's licence and the hunter certificates. The hunter certificates belong to the hunt committees initially and are issued by them. They have a very special relationship with the people who own point-to-point horses. One must remember that hunts take place over farmers' land and there is a special arrangement with people who help on a voluntary basis. There may not be a charge for the certs when they are received from the hunt. When the people come to us for registration, there is a fee of €50. The hunt committees are very particular about hunter certs and there is a question mark about them. We met representatives from the hunt committees approximately a month ago. Perhaps the tourism board would know more about it but there are questions being raised in certain quarters.