Mr. Tony Donohoe:

To take Deputy McConalogue's questions, there has been a response to the German model. One of the big differences is they have been at it for so long. I attended a conference on apprenticeship in Brussels about a year ago and a British academic suggested that they had been doing this since 1152. I do not know how they came up with that date but the point is that it has its roots in the medieval guilds. They also have the institutional arrangements that Mr. Flaherty mentioned - that is, German companies have to be members of business organisations, employer organisations, by law. If the Deputy wants to suggest that to our legislators I will not have an objection, but we do not have that kind of embedded employer or trade union involvement in our structures in a way that goes back over decades. What we do have is a responsive education and training system which has a proven track record of working with business, and increasingly so in recent times. That goes back to the 1970s when the institutes of technology responded to the first wave of ICT companies coming here in a very effective way.

The review group did not spend too much time considering the binary secondary system they have in Germany, because in practical terms that will not change, and such a change would probably not be desirable. It is much more to do with parity of esteem, a phrase I have used a few times, in terms of what happens afterwards. The guidance counsellors in the secondary system and teachers generally have a role to play, but what will sell this model is if people come out with good-quality, sustainable jobs. If the model works it will speak for itself. If people coming through this system are outperforming third level graduates - I will come back to Senator D'Arcy's comments on third level - and if it worked properly in the jobs market it would speak for itself.

The Deputy's final question was on disconnection with further education, as opposed to higher education. The Skillnets network, albeit a relatively small initiative with an investment of €15 million, is a very good model and is similar to what we are proposing for apprenticeships. We are not proposing the establishment of a separate organisation but the idea of education and training providers and employers coming together and making a proposal which, if it passed different criteria, would then be funded. The higher education institutions tend to be more receptive to that. We could conjecture the reason, but FÁS was embedded with employers on the training side in regard to level 6 or below. The further education system has been much more fragmented. It has worked and responded well in some areas but not so well in others. That was borne out by the recent review of further education, which, in fairness, sets a blueprint that, if followed, would address the concern I raised and that the Deputy picked up on.

I echo Deputy O'Brien's comments on funding and the fact that we need to start sooner in terms of seed funding.

With regard to meeting fluctuating demand and the fact that over 80% of apprenticeships in 2006 were in the construction sector - we saw what happened to that sector and to the apprentices - economies always move in cycles and there will always be changes in demand. There are two ways of addressing this, the first of which was mentioned by the Deputy, namely, transferable skills, but there is also the idea of plotting progression routes, as he mentioned, out from levels 5 and 6 into higher education and the idea of job clusters. That is something we have been thinking about internally. We have been thinking about this in terms of sectors - for example, what would work for the medical devices sector. However, many of the jobs, whether they are to do with Six Sigma, computer-aided design or quality engineering, are transferable, so perhaps we should start thinking in terms of clusters of jobs. That is the sort of detail I presume the Apprenticeship Council will get into when it is considering sustainability, but if a quality engineer is employable whether he or she is in medical devices, food, ICT or a range of other sectors, future-proofing it as far as we can in that way is something we could consider.

Senator D'Arcy's comments were on charges for apprenticeships. Mr. Flaherty covered that to an extent, particularly with regard to the equality dimension between the third level student in an institute of technology and the apprentice. The apprentice gets much more State support. However, the entire area of third level funding needs to be examined, as well as the way in which students are supported. The Minister announced a review of that last week under the chairmanship of Peter Cassells, and it feeds into this conversation in terms of the idea of student loans, etc.

An interesting point was raised around tertiary education targets and their legitimacy. There is no easy answer, except to say it shows the limitations of targets. What we should remember about the higher education system is that much of it is vocational, which is a potential strength. This is something that was raised when the committee was discussing the technological university a few weeks ago. In European countries, particularly in Germany, tertiary education is academic. It has a strong academic focus, whereas we have a potential strength with some of our universities and institutes of technology where the courses are vocational and have a critical role to play. If one can plan progression routes and have them transparent and visible, this flexibility that the German system does not have is a potential strength of the Irish system.

The issue of gender balance was raised by Deputies Jonathan O'Brien and Aodhán Ó Riordáin. It has probably been covered in broadening the range. It is a subject that recurs, particularly in the area of science, technology, engineering and maths, the so-called "STEM" subjects, regarding attracting young women into related occupations. There have been many initiatives and role models. It is encouraging that the president of Engineers Ireland is a lady. It is that kind of message that must keep being reinforced. To go back to my original point, if there are good quality jobs as a result of this initiative, as I genuinely think there can be, it will sell itself to both genders.