Dr. Peter Rigney:

On the issue of gender balance, when I dealt with industrial relations I worked with Irish Rail, which was a big recruiter of apprentices. To increase the number of women apprentices it took in each year and we learned a number of things. First, it is a single process. One does not get bodies through the door until the results of the CAO process are known. Second, there were many false perceptions about the regulations. People said that one had to have technical drawing but one does not. One has to have either technical drawing or art and as a result of that the potential female constituency was widened. The perception was that one had to have to have science, but one had to have a science subject and when domestic science was included the constituency was widened. If apprenticeships are confined to specific male dominated industries, they will be male dominated, all other things being equal, despite the efforts by employers and despite the bursary system operated by FÁS-SOLAS. Therefore, the best way of having a gender balance, which reflects society as whole, is to have a broader range of apprenticeships.

That said, the issue that does not tend to be stated is that the biggest issue facing the Irish education system is the under-achievement of young males. That is a major issue and if one does a Google search for Dr. Seán McDonagh, the former head of Dundalk Institute of Technology, and what he has written on that, one will find it is an eye-opener.

We cannot take our eye off that ball. As we all know, girls mature more rapidly than boys and, frequently, boys of a certain age will not take to being disciplined in a classroom scenario, whereas in work they will frequently accept being informally disciplined with short, monosyllabic words and put in their place.

On the question of sustainability, the group did not go into that in any great detail because it is question of how to regulate for peaks and troughs. In an ideal world we should have had a way, at the height of the boom, of telling someone they could not become an electrician, a plasterer or a bricklayer because in the long term we do not have the demand for those. I suggest if we did that the Deputy's clinics would be overflowing with people complaining that their sons could not get a job, and some people mentioned the constitutional right to earn a living.

On the other hand, at the bottom of the boom we have to have the long-term vision to decide, if plasterers are not taken in this year, what can we do to keep the facilities in place. Plastering is a discipline in which one must stop working before the age of 65 because one's joints begin to give out. Six years down the line from the slump, where will we get people to build houses a couple of years from now? Mr. Flaherty would be asking what he should do with all the empty classrooms. Difficult discussions have to be had about the issue of sustainability, but there are not necessarily any easy answers.

On the question of the German model, the German authorities are asking anyone who will listen in Europe to take on their model. Fair play to them because they are putting in their money and asking countries like Spain, Slovenia and Slovakia to implement their model.

The most interesting aspect I would bring to members from our deliberations on the committee is that we had one of the most eminent training academics, Professor Hilary Steedman. Her main piece of advice was, whatever we do, we should not follow the UK model. That was the most interesting piece of advice I got on the matter.

On the question of the national training fund, in 2000, with the prospect of the former communist countries being admitted to the European Union, the Government took the view that the level of European Social Fund, ESF, funding we are getting for apprenticeships would not last beyond accession. At that time, I understand, employer's PRSI - Mr. Donohoe will correct me if I am wrong - was 12.7%.