John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for coming along and providing the information in the way they have. The witnesses have been helpful to the committee and have cleared up the nub of the issue, which was defended at the previous meeting, that Rehab gains its funds for salaries from commercial operations. I do not believe that Rehab is a commercial organisation. Within this country, Rehab has substantial funding from the State and the public. Rehab must reflect on this, as must Dr. Molloy.

With regard to Deputy Ross's point, the board was not adequate in its response to many issues that faced Rehab. To a large degree, the dominant figure, the CEO, was allowed to conduct affairs without question. The payments made on behalf of Rehab were made to an individual without procurement. That is a matter for the board but was never questioned. Another issue is that the payment was made to a company that had been dissolved and was not registered. The contribution of the witnesses to the meeting gives the lie to some of the matters raised in letters on behalf of Ms Kerins's legal team and on behalf of Mr. Flannery. Clearly, the witnesses were treated fairly although the Rehab view is different and it has expressed that in its press release. It is also true that, in view of the fact the money was pooled centrally in Rehab Group with various salaries paid out of it, it was taxpayers' money.

The money was being recycled through the various entities and ended up by way of different management fees, structures and so in the Rehab Group from which payments were then made. There were also gifts from the United Kingdom.

In my opinion the Rehab Group is not a commercial entity. It relies heavily on the taxpayer and without taxpayer's support, it would not exist. We have to reflect on that. That brings me to the issue in respect of Mr. Flannery and Ms Kerins. Substantial questions need to be answered in the context of the work of the Public Accounts Committee. I recognise the data protection issues in respect of their retirement packages and so on, and indeed in relation to the settlement reached with the individual who dealt with the coffins issue. That information should be in the public domain. I know that we as legislators passed a law in relation to data protection but there are times when one would like to see that legislation challenged. I wonder would they challenge it.

It speaks volumes about the board and the CEO that correspondence to the HSE would include a provision that under no circumstances should the Committee of Public Accounts be informed. I think it was appalling to take that attitude and to express it in a letter to the HSE.

I ask the witnesses to reflect on all of the questions that have been asked today. I ask them to make a direct intervention with Ms Kerins and Mr. Flannery asking them to make themselves available in the context of the investigation that PAC is conducting. We still consider both individuals to be important witnesses in terms of bringing our work to a conclusion. It is essential that the witnesses, as representatives of the Rehab Group, communicate that to both parties. I am emphasising that point because of their comments about Ms Kerins and Mr. Flannery They may be true, and that is the opinion of the witnesses, but if they were that essential to the charity sector and if they were, to use the words of a witness "passionate" about the charity sector, they would come forward and clear up all matters relating to this issue. It is absolutely deplorable that neither one of them would come before the Committee of Public Accounts, and that they would use legal advice to suggest that we were acting unfairly, that we were on a witch-hunt and that it was a smokescreen for members and so on. I reject that entirely on behalf of members. I ask that this message be relayed to them. The witnesses have worked with them and know and speak to them.

We are trying to do a job which is essential. We account for the expenditure of taxpayers' money. In the interest of the charity sector generally and bringing closure to this controversy, it is essential that they come before the committee and explain themselves.

Aside from the questions we have, it is high time that their arrangements with the Rehab Group were published. Sooner or later they will be published. I think it would be a great service to the sector if they were. Let us get it all out in the wash, let us clarify it for the general public so that everybody knows what has been going on, what salaries people were being paid. We can then move on from here, however, there is no moving on until such time as all that information is put out in the public domain. I am only reflecting the view of the members, the workers and those involved with Rehab because people have certainly come to me. They want to see that happening. There is information in the public domain and they would like to see everybody in the same boat giving the same information. It is even more important after today's meeting because it is clear that there is a substantial link to taxpayers' money. The myth that it comes from a corporate entity making money does not stand up.

I thank each and every person present for coming forward today. It has been most helpful. I know, as Mr. Kerr said, that it is not something that one would relish or look forward to but the witnesses today have done a fine job in giving us the information. It is still incomplete in the context of the arrangements with those whom I have mentioned. I ask the witnesses to bring their understanding of what we are trying to do to bear on them so that we can conclude our work.

I think that is fair, not just to the PAC members but to the general public who actually fund the Rehab Group. This is taxpayers' money allocated by the Department. There is an obligation on the Department to account for the money and to explain to the Committee of Public Account what is going on. That has not happened, much to the regret of the committee and the general public who have examined and considered this controversy in the past few weeks. We want to bring it to an end and restore confidence in the charity sector. If people are passionate about the sector, they should take the step necessary to do likewise.

I thank the witnesses for attending today.