Mr. David Hall:

We need much more than an appeals system. Other jurisdictions with decades of experience in regard to what went wrong have perfectly functioning insolvency regimes. Here, we decided we would bring in some young fellow who would create the most complicated, complex, convoluted system we could ever undertake. Yesterday, a court record showed we have had 69 protective certificates and ten concluded deals in the past six months. Everyone accepts every new process requires ramping up, yet we have 4,500 clients.

We have approximately 1,000 clients who are ready to deal with their unsecured debt, having done a satisfactory deal on their secured debt. We teamed up with Grant Thornton yesterday to ensure no one will be charged a fee, up to and including bankruptcy, because we have a responsibility, irrespective of our concerns regarding the mechanisms involved in the Act, to allow debtors and our clients deal with their unsecured debt. The cost is too prohibitive, not just the PIP cost, which is unclear and uncertain, although many PIPs do not charge upfront. It can be €500 for a personal insolvency arrangement, PIA, just to get a meeting with creditors, who may say "No" and exercise their veto. A charge of €950 can be made for a bankruptcy arrangement.

We have an entire industry of court fees that deal and pick off the carcases of debtors in order that they can have an audience with their creditors, who may then go through an act and then decide to veto any request. The charge should be only €30 and then, if a successful deal is agreed, a charge of €300 could then be applied. Judge Ryan was in the Circuit Court yesterday and she reminded a number of people in court who were having a dispute in regard to an insolvent person, having raked up fees three times the level of the person's debts, that it was an insolvency case and that no one had any money to pay the fees.

We need to step back and look at this issue. There are 95 staff in the Insolvency Service of Ireland and my calculation is that the charge in fees for a year amounts to €4.5 million a year. They would be better off giving everyone a cheque for €100,000 and telling them to go and talk to their creditors.